Hyper-Electionism - the worst kind of heresy

Brother Ray Berrian:


RAY BERRIAN SAID: But, when you move to try to guess-timate as to how many more people going to Hell than Heaven then you have to consider Matthew 7:13-14. Of the teaming billions of souls who will have ever lived, then Heaven will abide only the relative, 'few.' The Greek word for 'few' is {oligoi} means {puny, little or small}. Are not the majority of souls on their way to eternal destruction? St. Matthew says, that many will take the way that leads to destruction.

The Greek word for 'destruction' is {apoleian} suggesting eternal damnation or perdition

ME (BROTHER JOE): I agree with you that we cannot know exactly how many people will be in heaven or Hell. I suspect there will be a large number in both, but stating anything beyond that is mere speculation.

However, you must be aware that utilizing the Matthew passage and others like it such as the one that states, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22-23) is a problem not exclusive to the calvinist. Arminians must also wrestle with such questions as "Why did God create SO MANY people with a free will whom he KNEW BEFOREHAND would reject him and wind up in Hell, why not only create those whom he knew would accept him by their own free will? And also, how did evil come into existence to begin with since God is all just and good?" Therefore, brother Ray, the problem of many people going to Hell is an ineffective arguement to attack Calvinism on, since the doctrines of Arminiasm leaves us with similar unanswered questions.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Paul's answer to his own questions in Romans 10 was, "But I say, Have they not all heard?" If simply hearing the Gospel with the outward ear were enough to procure eternal salvation, then there would have been more Jews to accept the message preached. But Paul says, "SO THEN, faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God." Most folks have it that faith comes by the word of God. It doesn't say that. Faith comes by HEARING, and we know that not everyone has an ear to hear. Then, when one has an ear to hear, he can truly hear and receive the message preached unto salvation (the knowledge of it). Upon hearing the Gospel, salvation becomes a practical and experimental part of their lives. The Gospel is an emancipation from a state of spiritual bondage (a state that no man is aware of till born again). This is what we PRIMITIVE BAPTISTS call CONDITIONAL TIME SALVATION. And it IS the truth. Isn't it something that Paul begins the book of Galatians with a declaration that Jesus died to deliver (save) us from this present evil world. Think about it. Jesus dying for you does not in and of itself deliver you in the present. Right? Only when the Gospel is preached (the true Gospel, not the Arminian Galatian heresy) that there can be present deliverance from this world. I guess you could call it Present Salvation instead of Conditional Time Salvation, but nevertheless, the principle is still there.

 

As Luther writes, "For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us."

 

Brother Primitive:

YOU SAID: Then, when one has an ear to hear, he can truly hear and receive the message preached unto salvation (the knowledge of it). Upon hearing the Gospel, salvation becomes a practical and experimental part of their lives. The Gospel is an emancipation from a state of spiritual bondage (a state that no man is aware of till born again). This is what we PRIMITIVE BAPTISTS call CONDITIONAL TIME SALVATION. And it IS the truth. Isn't it something that Paul begins the book of Galatians with a declaration that Jesus died to deliver (save) us from this present evil world. Think about it. Jesus dying for you does not in and of itself deliver you in the present. Right? Only when the Gospel is preached (the true Gospel, not the Arminian Galatian heresy) that there can be present deliverance from this world. I guess you could call it Present Salvation instead of Conditional Time Salvation, but nevertheless, the principle is still there.
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ME: Brother Primitive, I totally agree with you regarding the purpose of the gospel. Morever, if the gospel was the instrument God used to regenerate souls then in order to be logically consistent we would have to conclude that all babies, mentally handicap, and those who have never heard the gospel go to eternal damnation. This would not be consistent with what we know from the Bible on the nature of God.

God regenerates independent of the gospel preached by man through a spiritual quickening by the Holy Ghost himself (see Ephesians 2:1,2:5,Colossians 2:13, and John 5:25). If this were not the method of regeneration the following verse would make no sense, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."(Luke 1:15)

Also, Annanias in the book of Acts is another good example to prove one is regenerated by the Spirit prior to receiving the gospel. In Acts 10:2-4 look at all the Bible has to say about him BEFORE the preacher even arrives!!: "1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. ******2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God"*****(Acts 10:2-4)

Jesus stated in John 5:25, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" A preacher can speak the WORDS of Jesus to the spiritually dead but not with JESUS'S VOICE. Only JESUS HIMSELF can deliver with HIS VOICE to the spiritually dead sinner in the effectual call to awaken them to live.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

[ July 04, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]

 

Primitive Baptist,

The Bible says, 'Today is the day of salvation.' There are no time limitations toward His favoring all sinners, except the hour of their deaths. The Holy Spirit is always active in the lives of sinners once they have heard the true message of the Gospel. If Jesus did not ignore the little children He never passes by His adult, sinful children of humankind.

Romans chapter three mentions the word 'all' at least three time. His righteousness is available through Christ to all and unto all who believe. [Romans 3:22] Why is everlasting life with Jesus available to all? Because ' . . . all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.' All sinners stand condemned before His Holiness and Divine majesty.

No one will ever be able to stand before the Lord and say, "Your, plan did not include me."

Ray

 

Brother Primitive:

YOU SAID: Then, when one has an ear to hear, he can truly hear and receive the message preached unto salvation (the knowledge of it). Upon hearing the Gospel, salvation becomes a practical and experimental part of their lives. The Gospel is an emancipation from a state of spiritual bondage (a state that no man is aware of till born again). This is what we PRIMITIVE BAPTISTS call CONDITIONAL TIME SALVATION. And it IS the truth. Isn't it something that Paul begins the book of Galatians with a declaration that Jesus died to deliver (save) us from this present evil world. Think about it. Jesus dying for you does not in and of itself deliver you in the present. Right? Only when the Gospel is preached (the true Gospel, not the Arminian Galatian heresy) that there can be present deliverance from this world. I guess you could call it Present Salvation instead of Conditional Time Salvation, but nevertheless, the principle is still there.
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ME: Brother Primitive, I totally agree with you regarding the purpose of the gospel. Morever, if the gospel was the instrument God used to regenerate souls then in order to be logically consistent we would have to conclude that all babies, mentally handicap, and those who have never heard the gospel go to eternal damnation. This would not be consistent with what we know from the Bible on the nature of God.

God regenerates independent of the gospel preached by man through a spiritual quickening by the Holy Ghost himself (see Ephesians 2:1,2:5,Colossians 2:13, and John 5:25). If this were not the method of regeneration the following verse about John the Baptist having the ghost would PRIOR to even being born make no sense, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."(Luke 1:15)

Also, Annanias in the book of Acts is another good example to prove one is regenerated by the Spirit prior to receiving the gospel. In Acts 10:2-4 look at all the Bible has to say about him BEFORE the preacher even arrives!!: "1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. ******2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God"*****(Acts 10:2-4)

Jesus stated in John 5:25, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" A preacher can speak the WORDS of Jesus to the spiritually dead but not with JESUS'S VOICE. Only JESUS HIMSELF can deliver with HIS VOICE to the spiritually dead sinner in the effectual call to awaken them to live.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother,

You asked the question, 'Now, I have two questions for you Brother Ray.

If as you assert, Christ's atonement actually paid for the sins of every human being as a ransom . . . .'

Ray: I am not asserting my own point or a philosophy. I am merely copying what God has penned via His servants. Read John 3:16, I Timothy 2:5-6, and I John 2:2.

Jesus died for the sins of the elect that's for sure [2a] but what does God mean when He says ' . . . and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world? Do you think His redemptive blood atonement was for angels or the animals which He created? Clearly He has redeemed someone beyond His elect souls.'

You said, ' . . . anyone goes to Hell for whose sins will they perish for seeing Christ has already paid for their sins?

Ray: No ones sins are removed and or covered unless that human being asks for forgiveness. God is not a Divine Dictator but God who not only offers His free gift of grace, but most willingly woos men and women to Himself by the urging of the Holy Spirit.'

You said, 'Further, would God be just to "punish sins again in man that have already been punished in Christ?" (Gowens, Why I Believe)

Ray: I don't believe God 'punishes the sins again' He rather punishes the sinner forever who has not yielded to the calling of the Spirit of God. Sins are non-personal until the have been committed by the sinner, if you understand what I mean.

The Ten Commandments were given to keep men and women away from sins, and only became sins when they were placed in motion by the will of the sinner or O.T. people of God and even in this 'better covenant.' [Hebrews 8:6]

Regards over the 4th.
Ray

 

Brother RAY,


BROTHER RAY SAID:I am not asserting my own point or a philosophy. I am merely copying what God has penned via His servants. Read John 3:16, I Timothy 2:5-6, and I John 2:2.

Jesus died for the sins of the elect that's for sure [2a] but what does God mean when He says ' . . . and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world?

ME(BROTHER JOE): Excuse my laziness Brother Ray, but in order to illustrate my interpretation on the above verses you have quoted me to support the so called " universal atonement" doctrine, I am posting part of an old response I gave to Brother Skandelon. I ask you read it and analze it. I pray you find it to be in line with what the Bible states. (It is a bit long so please bear with me.) God bless and take care!!!


BROTHER SKANDELON:What about John 3:16 and the word "whosoever will" and other such passages that speak of God calling all the world to repentance. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" etc??

ME (BROTHER JOE):

Michael Gowens in Basic Bible doctrine,"The Jews had for 1500 years, had a corner on God. They were privy to... special revelation to which the Gentiles had no claim. The exclusiveness of religious privelage in the Old Testament had caused many Jewish people (as well as Gentile people) to conclude that God would never bless, love, or save anyone but the Jews. A fundamental need existed in the early church, therefore, to emphasize the international scope of the gospel.Language such as,"There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female" must be understood in terms of hte radical cultural change that Christianity had introduced into a previously racially biased and religiously segregated world. To the Jews, this was "a big pill to swallow." (Remember how shocked Peter was when God revealed to him that the gentiles were to be included in the offer of salvation in the book of Acts?) The basic message of the early church was simply this: "God has a people among the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ the Lord, is also the Gentile savior and now, since he has come, God has made the good news of salvation, which was once restricted to the Jews alone, available to his people among the Gentiles as well, so that now, both Jew and Gentile may worship and serve God in a new coventant"

Take for example this passage, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"The world for whom Christ died cannot mean the entire human family. It must refer to the universality of the elect (people from every tribe and nation) OR TO THE INCLUSION OF GENTILES IN ADDITION TO THE WORLD OF JEWS. It was a jew who wrote that Jesus did not die merely for OUR sins but for the sins of the whole world. Does the word OUR refer to believers or believing Jews? We must remember that one of the cardinal points of the New Testament concerned the inclusion of the Gentiles in Gods' plan of salvation" (Sproul, Chosen By God)

In simpler terms, I interpret the word "world" often found in those verses you gave me to be referring to God also including elect gentiles from every natiion, tribe, and tongue. I do not take it to mean every person in the world. The 1 John verse would in my opinion make perfect sense when viewed in this light " And he is the propitiation for our (THE ELECT JEWS) sins: and not for ours (THE ELECT JEWS) only, but also for the sins of the whole world (THE ELECT GENTILES THROUGHTOUT THE WORLD)." (1 John 2:2)

We must remember the writer of the book of 1 John is a jew writing at a time and in a culture when gentiles were largerly thought to be excluded from God's plan of salvation thus John probably felt the need to emphasize these things.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

[ July 04, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]

 

Brother Joe,

God regenerates independent of the gospel preached by man through a spiritual quickening by the Holy Ghost himself (see Ephesians 2:1,2:5,Colossians 2:13, and John 5:25). If this were not the method of regeneration the following verse about John the Baptist having the ghost would PRIOR to even being born make no sense, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."(Luke 1:15)

John the Baptist was regenerated and given faith in the womb through the outward word of Mary. Luke 1:44

Also, Annanias in the book of Acts is another good example to prove one is regenerated by the Spirit prior to receiving the gospel. In Acts 10:2-4 look at all the Bible has to say about him BEFORE the preacher even arrives!!: "1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. ******2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God"*****(Acts 10:2-4)

Cornelius had heard of the coming Messiah from the Jews. By the outward word, he had received the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith alone and, therefore, his prayers and alms were acceptable to God.

 

Brother John:


ME:God regenerates independent of the gospel preached by man through a spiritual quickening by the Holy Ghost himself (see Ephesians 2:1,2:5,Colossians 2:13, and John 5:25). If this were not the method of regeneration the following verse about John the Baptist having the ghost would PRIOR to even being born make no sense, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."(Luke 1:15)


YOU:John the Baptist was regenerated and given faith in the womb through the outward word of Mary. Luke 1:44


ME (BROTHER JOE):

Here is Luke 1:44, " For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." This was the voice of Mary the Bible says. But remember Jesus said, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD: and they that hear shall live"(John 5:25) Now John, If Mary's voice regenerated the baby, then how could what Jesus said be true?

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother John:


ME (BROTHER JOE SAID): Also, Annanias in the book of Acts is another good example to prove one is regenerated by the Spirit prior to receiving the gospel. In Acts 10:2-4 look at all the Bible has to say about him BEFORE the preacher even arrives!!: "1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band. ******2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God"*****(Acts 10:2-4)


YOUR REPLY (BROTHER JOHN): Cornelius had heard of the coming Messiah from the Jews. By the outward word, he had received the imputed righteousness of Christ

ME (BROTHER JOE): Brother John, please show me prior to Peter's arrival what chapter and verse in the Bible states what you just said above regarding Cornelious? The Bible never says that! Im afraid your operating under unbiblical assumptions to fit your doctrinal map.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Ray:

BROTHER RAY SAID: No ones sins are removed and or covered unless that human being asks for forgiveness

ME (BROTHER JOE): Brother Ray do you believe when Christ was suffering on the cross he was ACTUALLY paying the penalty for the sins of people or only POTENTIALLY paying the penalty for sins of people?

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Joe,

Here is Luke 1:44, " For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." This was the voice of Mary the Bible says. But remember Jesus said, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD: and they that hear shall live"(John 5:25) Now John, If Mary's voice regenerated the baby, then how could what Jesus said be true?

The word of the preacher is efficacious where and when it pleases God (Romans 10:14-17). We know the child believed the word preached by Mary because John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother's womb.

John the Baptist heard the voice of the Son of God spoken through Mary. The preacher speaks in the stead and by the command of Christ.

 

My doctrinal map is scripture alone. I'll let you look up the specific chapters and verses. It is all plainly taught in the bible.

Scripture says Cornelious was "devout", "one that feareth God" and "a just man". Also he was "of good report among all the nations of the Jews". How could any of this be possible without the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith alone? And how could Cornelious believe without a preacher?

His prayers were heard by God and his gifts were pleasing to God. The prayers of unbelievers are not heard by God and their offerings are not acceptable.

The Holy Spirit does not come to men through their own preparations, works and prayers but only through the Word.

 

Brother Joe,

You missed the Biblical interpretation by a long shot. You said, 'Jesus stated in John 5:25, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

A preacher can speak the WORDS of Jesus to the spiritually dead . . . '

Ray: 'Yes, this is what the Gospel is all about, getting the message of the Cross out to a dying world.'

You said, ' . . . but not with JESUS'S VOICE. Only JESUS HIMSELF can deliver
with HIS VOICE to the spiritually dead sinner in the effectual call to awaken
them to live.'

Ray: The Effectual Call is an intervention word invented by those for the Calvinistic flair of thinking. They Holy Spirit is always effective in His call to conviction of sin, and call to receive Christ. Human's sometimes reject Him. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

John 5:25, 28 and 29 are all interlocked and speak to the saints who will rise from their graves at the rapture [I Thess. 4:16-17] {notice only those who are 'in Christ' will come out of their graves, and the remainder of sinners who will rise from the {dead} graves after the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. [Revelation 20:5a]

John 5:29 is a general statement by Jesus that all will be judged and no one will escape that thorough Divine review. Some Christians try to make this verse speak of a once for all time judgment for sinner and saint in one final judgment day.

For example, I might say to you, "Hey, Joe I'm coming over to your house and want to wash and wax your care. You might think I will do both procedures on the same day. But, my intent is to wash your car on Monday and to polish it later in the week.

In verse 25 only those who hear His voice calling for physical resurrection from the dead will come to life, to rise to be with Christ in the clouds. [I Thess. 4:17] Christians come forth at the rapture while the unsaved, only will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment, as referred to in Revelation 20:11. The Apostle John saw this while in Heaven and not from the earth side perspective. The sinners resurrection in the distant future did not take place either on the earth or in Heaven. How do we know this? Because the Bible says, 'I saw a great white throne, and He Who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the Heaven fled away; and there was no place found for them.

The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place in Heaven, while the sinner's judgment takes place neither in Heaven or on the earth. Perhaps it will be in space since even the wicked will have an eternal resurrection, so they might suffer for eternity.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Ray Berrian,

What about those who never havce a "chance" to "accept Christ as their personal Savior?" They will be able to say that God's plan did not include them (according to you).

 

Brother John:

HEllo.

YOU: John the Baptist heard the voice of the Son of God spoken through Mary. The preacher speaks in the stead and by the command of Christ.

ME: The preacher can speak the WORDS of Christ but NOT WITH HIS voice, just like I can speak the words of John Gilmore but not utilize his voice. There is an effectual call that is personal and delivered by the voice of the Lord himself that regenerates us. This call is mentioned over and over by Christ himself in the gospel of John "and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." (John 10:3), " And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. " (John 10:16), and "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Ray,


YOU STATED: The Effectual Call is an intervention word invented by those for the Calvinistic flair of thinking.

ME: I disagree. Brother Ray, is not the effectual call of Christ mentioned in all the following verses by Christ himself?

1)"the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out" (John 10:3)

2)"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

3)" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27)


Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Joe,

1)"the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and
leadeth them out" (John 10:3)

2)"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must
bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one
shepherd." (John 10:16)

3)" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John
10:27)

All of these verses speak to the issue that those who have faith and love Jesus will follow Him. Sheep indicate his own people.

Goats suggest that people are sinners and are not yet in the kingdom/church.

Ray

 

"He that heareth you heareth me." Luke 10:16 The voice of the preacher pronouncing the free forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus to all who believe is the voice of God. It is a voice from heaven itself.

Satan does not want us to hear that voice from heaven or believe it but, rather, he wants us to trust in our own inner voice of personnel enlightenment.

[ July 05, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]