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Hyper-Electionism - the worst kind of heresy

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Jun 18, 2004.

  1. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe New Member

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    Brother JOHN Gilmore:


    BROTHER JOHN SAID:
    The Holy Spirit does not come to men through their own preparations, works and prayers but only through the Word.

    ME: Brother John, forgive my lengthy response, but I ask you do take time to study and read it and would appreciate any replies you may have (negative or positive.)

    Firstly Brother John, I agree with you it is not through works, prayers, and the preperations of men that one receives the Holy Spirit, however it is also NOT through ANY means of man including the preached word. I believe you have conversion and regeneration confused. Doesnt this scripture in Jhon teach us the Holy Spirit enters one making them born again independent of the gospel? Christ states, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" (John 3:8-9) Brother John,If one received the Holy Spirit via the spoken word of the gospel, then it wouldnt be like the wind because you would be able to identify a specifc time, place, and source that it came from, correct?


    BROTHER JOHN SAID: Scripture says Cornelious was "devout", "one that feareth God" and "a just man". Also he was "of good report among all the nations of the Jews". How could any of this be possible without the imputed righteousness of Christ received by faith alone?

    ME: Brohter John, we agree that Cornellious was born again before the preacher arrived (although we disagree on how that came about.)

    Later in the chapter Peter arrives and Preaches the gospel to Cornellious so he can receive what is known as "justification by faith alone"- in short, this is when Cornellioius gets converted, although he was already born again prior to this. (see Acts 10)

    There are 3 different kinds of justification taught in the Bible (Dont worry,I will provide scriptural support for what probably seems to you to be a heretical or at least crazy off base statement.)

    1)We are legally justified by God by Christ's substitutionary death for us ALONE! This is what sends us to heaven, NOT faith in the gospel! Where is this in the Bible? " Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9). This is our legal justification. It is also mentioned at length in Isaiah 53, Hebrews 10:14,"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", and many, many other places throughout the New Testament.

    2)We become aware of our legal justification here in our existence on earth via hearing and having faith in the gospel when it is preached to us. This is known as "justification by faith alone" or gospel conversion. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."(Romans 3:28)

    Brother John,I like to use the analogy of Lincoln's Immancipation Proclomation to free the slaves. The slaves were legally free by law when Lincoln made the announcement, correct? (This would be our legal justification on calvary, what actually sends us to heaven.) However, it didnt do the slaves any good on earth being freed until someone told them they were freed. So up till this point they were legally free, but slaves in their minds hear on earth until they heard the "good news" from someone of their purchased freedom. When they hear the good news and believe it they have been "justified by faith" so to speak for purposes of our analogy.

    3) Finally, their is a third justification spoken of in the Bible towards a man to a man or "justification by works" as I call it. This is how those around us know and can visibly tell we have been justified by Christ's blood and faith. They see our changed behavior (i.e. our works) and it is evident to them we have been justified. This is what James is talking about, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"(James 2:24) In our slave example, people could tell the slaves were now freed when they began to act like free people. So likewise, people can tell were Christians by our actions.

    This may seem strange to you Brother John, but I would like to point out that if one does not distinguish between these 3 types of justification found in scripture and takes them all to mean the same thing, he ends with Romans 5:9, 3:28, and James 2:24 all contradicting each other on how one becomes justified.

    One must first have the Holy Spirit to be able to produce faith in the gospel because faith itself is a fruit of the Holy Ghost. Remember the Bible says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith"(Galations 5:22). If we do not have the tree how would we producte the fruit of the tree to begin with?

    A person that is spiritually dead cannot produce faith because one must first have life (the Holy spirit) to act spiritually.

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  2. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Brother Joe,

    Firstly Brother John, I agree with you it is not through works, prayers, and the preperations of men that one receives the Holy Spirit, however it is also NOT through ANY means of man including the preached word.

    The preached word is not a means of man. It is a voice from heaven proclaiming the free forgiveness of sins.

    Brother John,If one received the Holy Spirit via the spoken word of the gospel, then it wouldnt be like the wind because you would be able to identify a specifc time, place, and source that it came from, correct?

    I agree you in the sense that the Holy Spirit calls, works faith, gathers, and enlightens the Christian throughout his life of sanctification.

    There are 3 different kinds of justification taught in the Bible (Dont worry,I will provide scriptural support for what probably seems to you to be a heretical or at least crazy off base statement.)

    I agree with your first and second types of justification. We are objectively justified by the blood of Christ that takes away the sins of the world. We are subjectively justified through faith alone when the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

    There is no justification by works. Good works are necessary since they always follow faith and, in that sense alone, they can be said to justify by providing evidence of the actual justification. But God alone justifies the sinner. Man in no way cooperates with God in his own personal justification.
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    How does that prove the word is efficacious whenever and wherever God pleases? How do you know John the Baptist didn't accept the Gospel of his own free will?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    The Holy Spirit works on the life of sinners in a myriad of ways. Just ask different Christians how they came to Christ. The Holy Spirit by His power and influence uses Christians or perhaps a verse from the Bible to bring a soul to the Lord.

    I was called into the ministry by the Apostle Paul's words coming from Almighty God as found in Romans 10:14-15, but came to Christ and was received by Him nine years earlier through the witness of the Holy Spirit, via my late mother.

    Sinners are called to eternal life by the witness of the Word and the prompting of the Holy Spirit of God. It is our responsibility to witness to Christ's truth relative to eternal salvation, so God has the means through which a sinner can be saved. ' . . . and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard.' [Romans 10:14b]

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Absouluely. God couldn't save sinners without our help. Just ask Paul. :D
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I believe Stephen's testimony and martyrdom has to be factored into the conversion of Saul/the Apostle Paul, [Acts 7:55-60] who was later converted on the Road to Demascus. [Acts 9:1-8] [​IMG]
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    It is our responsibility to witness to Christ's truth relative to eternal salvation, so God has the means through which a sinner can be saved. Absouluely. God couldn't save sinners without our help. Just ask St. Mark.

    'And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.' [16:15] [​IMG]
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ray,

    I have to concure with Nick's shocked expression by your statement.

    God may choose to use us in the redemptive process but I would never dare say that He needs us or that He couldn't do something without our help.

    Certainly you meant that his plan includes using our help? :confused:
     
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Calvinists believe in a decretive election for the saved and the lost.

    If a person comes to this kind of understanding of the Word, then God does not need to minister through any Christians or even through a verse from the Bible that a sinner might read and understand.

    A decree requires no response at all from the sinner. The Lord God has elected some to Hell and to Heaven and that's that. This is merely Christian philosophy that the Apostle Paul warns us about in Colossians 2:8.

    'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'

    Calvinism is a quasi-Christian philosophy that does not dovetail with the words and truths of Jesus Christ. Augustine mixed Christian theology with the philosophy of Aristotle and Socrates. Research it for yourself.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Apparently some of you people would like it if we would 'white out' the alleged, fact that we are not 'ministers of reconciliation . . . . and that we along with the Apostle Paul were and are not ' . . . ambassadors for Christ. [II Corinthians 5:18-20]

    The fact is that we are ministering the covenant of reconciliation and are agents for Jesus.

    Salvation is all of grace but we have our ministry to fulfil so that sinners can ' . . . be made the righteousness of God in Him.' [vs. 21]
     
  12. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe New Member

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    Brother John:

    Thanks for your reply.

    YOU: There is no justification by works. Good works are necessary since they always follow faith and, in that sense alone, they can be said to justify by providing evidence of the actual justification. But God alone justifies the sinner. Man in no way cooperates with God in his own personal justification.

    ME: I agree with you. I guess I did a poor job of communicating my third type of justification.

    I (like you) also believe God alone can take credit and produces any works that are present in a believer. These works are evidence to outsiders of are born again state. Being born again is wholly and purely an act of Christs atoning work which is applied by the spirit in regeneration which man in no way works for. The works present in the believer is only evidence to others that we are saved and in no way contribute to our gift of eternal life. In short, works are a result of being saved, not the cause.

    Take care and glad to see we truly agree on more than we perhaps first thought.

    Brother Joe
     
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Justification is by faith alone. [Romans 5:1] God does all the saving. Ephesians 2:8-10 indicates that God give us the gifts and ability to walk in the true faith of Jesus.

    'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
     
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