Hypocrisy

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by gopchad, Dec 18, 2004.

  1. gopchad

    gopchad
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    Isn't it Hypocritical of someone who claims to be Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist to pray for the salvation of someone? Calvinists, Do you pray for the salvation of lost relatives or loved ones? How do you square this with your belief that those whom God elects He will save?

    In Christ,

    Chad
     
  2. Monergist

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  3. gopchad

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    Yes I do believe that God must draw men to Himself, and that without that drawing man cannot find salvation; however, I believe that man can and does resist that offer of salvation.

    When I pray, I usually pray that God would draw those people to Himself, and that I and others would be faithful in sharing the gospel. I happen to believe that is the proper way to pray. I think it is futile to pray "Lord, please save Johnny".

    BTW, I believe that Hyper-Calvinists are the truly honest calvinists.

    In Christ

    Chad
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    For those whose will is set against God, there is no salvation! God does not save those who have no will to be saved, and those whose will is set against God are the rotten fruit in the basket. The are not saved, they are discarded (into the lake of fire).

    God does not save those who have no faith in him.

    God does not save those who have no faith in him.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    No, not at all. What is hypocritical is for non-Calvinists to pray. When a non-Calvinist prays, they are asking God to intervene in man's free will. They are asking God to show favoritism to the people lucky enough to have a Christian to pray for them.

    Absolutely

    Because the God who ordains the ends (salvation) also ordains the means (prayer, preaching, etc.). To paraphrase someone else, CAvlinism does not make prayer and evangelism pointless; it is the only thing that makes it fruitful. If God is not the way that Calvinists understand him to be, then prayer is completely useless in salvation, and in fact in everything.

    Hyper calvinists really aren't Calvinists at all.

    Here, you run into a direct biblical confrontation. John 6 teaches that no one can come unless the Father draws him, But those whom the FAther draws will be raised up at the last day. Therefore, no one is drawn by the Father and then remains unsaved. The fact that they are raised up shows that they drawing was not resisted.

    Here again, we see yet another place where your doctrine runs afoul of the Scriptures.
     
  6. gopchad

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    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him (who comes) [added by poster for clarity] up at the last day.

    Actually John 6 is saying the Father will raise the man who comes. It is not saying that all who are drawn will accept, but all who come are raised in the last day.

    In Christ
    Chad
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    I presume by "john 6" you are meaning only those verses where Jesus is in the Synagog at Capernaum addressing his chosen people "the Jews". More specifically,
    Jesus was speaking to Jews and quotes the prophets who were also speaking to jews. Thus, NO JEW can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Keep in mind that ALL this happened long before Peter's vision (post ascention of Christ) and Paul's recruitment on the Damascus road.

    At this point in time, Salvation had come ONLY TO THE JEWS in the form of Jesus their long awaited Messiah, whom as we see in retrospect, they rejected!

    It was not until Peter had his vision of the sheets, that Salvation became available to ALL mankind, ALL nations so to speak. Yes Jesus did commission the Apostles to go into all the world. but I'm sure from my own spiritual life, that they did not fully understand what that commission meant, UNTIL it was given to Peter in his visions.

    NO, Larry, John 6 is not good proof-text for supporting Calvinist dogma. It is great proof text for use in evangelizing Jews however.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    In John 6, Christ was addressing unbelievers. To bring race into it is a desperate and unworkable attempt to explain away the truth of Scripture. This is a prime example of our often repeated statement that your position will stand only by changing the meaning of Scripture. Christ was addressing those who were "of their father the devil." That is a description that is applied to every non-believer whether Jew or Gentile.

    When you say that salvation was not available to all until Peter's vision, you overlook the plain teaching of Scripture. We could consider many in the OT, but don't need to to prove the point. Look at the woman at the well, a Samaritan. There are many cases during the life of Christ where non-Jews were saved and became followers of Christ.

    There is no doubt that the disciples did not fully understand all of Christ's teaching. But there is no reason for you not to understand what Christ plainly taught.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    Larry,
    "He came unto his own but his own received him not!" The scene in John 6 is Jesus among his own! It is quite discriptive of the condition of man. However, you must insert Peter's visions of the sheets with all kinds of life in them between John 6 and NOW!

    You cannot base your doctrine on John 6 lest you declare yourself a Jew! Instead you must base your doctrine on Post ascention events that opened up Salvation to all mankind through faith! All mankind has the word of God, and it is a matter of hearing and believing, not on being elected as you believe!
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Several major issues:

    First, a misunderstanding of Peter's vision. Who was that for? IT was for the Jews, to inform them that salvation was not a racial issue limited to them alone. It did not broaden the door of salvation; it made it clear that the door was already broadened. As I have pointed out, there are numerous instances in bothe the OT and the Gospels where non-Jews were saved, so we know that your interpretation of it is wrong. Salvation was already opened up to all mankind who would believe. That was not a post ascension truth.

    Second, as I pointed out, in John 6 Jesus is addressing those whose father is the devil, rather than God. Is that true of unbelievers today? If you answer yes, then you acknowledge that the teaching of John 6 and 8 is applicable to all who fit that description.

    Third, not all mankind has the word of God, and that certainly isn't true throughout history. If you conception of salvation is true, then God is very partial, giving opportunity only to those born in a land where the Word is known, and excluding those born elsewhere. In the biblical teaching God is not partial.

    Fourth, you repeat the nonsense that hearing and believing is somehow separated from election. It is not. Whether you agree with election or not, it is still true. If you or anyone else is truly saved, then it is because God chose you to salvation from the beginning.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Jesus, IN THE SYNAGOG at Capernaum calling the religious elite among the people of Capernaum children of the Devil? Dangerous territory wouldn't you say? Either the act of a fool or the act of God!

    Because Satan is spirit, who has not, and indeed cannot father children, but can only deceive and lie, being the father of lies, none of those whom Jesus is addressing are literal "children of the devil but are rather deceived from being Children of God. As a result, they do not hear the word of God coming from God the Son. All mankind who do not believe in God are in the same condition of that religious elite in Capernaum. So Yes, and Yes those teachings you cite do apply to all. However if you insist on calling the gentiles the elect of God, then you'd be wrong! It is only those who hear and believe that are the elect, and "whosoever", meaning "any out of all" do in truth have the ability to hear and believe. There is no one who is excluded!
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    IT was certainly the act of God. THe deity of Jesus is not under dispute here.

    The family issue (father of) is speaking spiritually. We are the children of God in teh same way that unbelievers are the children of the devil. It is a reference to spiritual relationships. They are the children of hte devil by birth. They are blinded and deceived by their sinfulness.

    At least I have something in common with the apostles. They did it too.

    Yes, which is what I said. All of the elect hear and believe. None of the non-elect do.

    Yes, true ... whosoever will may come. What you miss is that they are not willing. Sin has blinded their minds and hearts and rendered them morally unable to come. They are not willing. Therefore, they are not saved.

    The Bible teaches that man's will is turned against God and he will not turn to God unless God first draws him. That drawing is effectual and will result in belief and salvation.

    You are trying hard, you just don't have the Scripture to back you up.
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    How were they saved when the payment for there sins hadn't come yet. The Law didn't save. This is why Christ died for our sins. Yet you claim that men were saved before Christ. The Law demands payment. Which is why the comming of Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. There were a lot of old testament saints saved after Christ set them free. But only after He paid the penality for there sins . The Law offers no credit for what isn't paid. The oldtestament saints were in Abrahams bossom they were not in Heaven. They were saved from hell only if they accepted Christ as there messiah. No this doesn't mean they were in Hell because Hell hasn't been created yet. They were only held captive by there sins until they had been paid for.
    What I'm trying to point out is being saved in the old testament days meant something different than it does today. Today we are present with the Lord the second we die in the old testament they had to wait for the atonement and then believe in Christ.

    May God Bless;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Southern

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    Chad,

    Nice to meet you, don't think I have ever seen you around.

    This is a great question. God has not only ordained the ends but also the "means" to those ends, which includes prayer. I pray because I believe that God "can" save a person and uses prayer as a means of accomplishing His will.

    But given your view. Why do you pray? If God is trying to save everyone anyway, then what good is your prayer gonna do? Is he gonna put forth 110% effort because "you" pray?

    Conclusion-If God is trying to save everyone anyway, then what good will it do to pray for them?
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Yes, which is what I said. All of the elect hear and believe. None of the non-elect do.</font>[/QUOTE]That is not what I said, Larry, that is what you want to hear. Election through FAITH comes as the result of FAITH and is not the predecessor to it! Since ALL, meaning any out of all that exist, have existed, or will exist, have the same capacity to come to faith, then only those who do become the elected ones...through FAITH alone! God established human FAITH as HIS criteria for saving individual men! Even Abraham, Noah, and all the notables of the Old Testament, are SAVED through their FAITH. God did not pre-condition Noah or Abraham to have FAITH in Him. They had faith because they heard His Words that he spoke to them, and believed. Noah could have been just like the rest among which he lived, but he was not! Abraham could have refused to listen to God's call, but he didn't. So it boils down to individual human FAITH, from the beginning to the end!

    Try this on for size
    FAITH in GOD has always been what Pleases God. ALL who come to have such FAITH are just in God's eyes. ALL here means any out of ALL that exist or have existed or will exist, and FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Granted, Abraham was spoken to directly by the Spirit of God, and perhaps, just perhaps, we are all spoken to directly by God. It is a sure thing however, that FAITH comes to us by hearing the word of God. One need not be predestined to have such FAITH, because the Word of God is the source of FAITH and all who hear the word of God must "choose you this day whom you will serve". Faith has always been God's selection criteria. The scriptures do bear that out.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    This is a great question. God has not only ordained the ends but also the "means" to those ends, which includes prayer. I pray because I believe that God "can" save a person and uses prayer as a means of accomplishing His will.

    But given your view. Why do you pray? If God is trying to save everyone anyway, then what good is your prayer gonna do? Is he gonna put forth 110% effort because "you" pray?

    Conclusion-If God is trying to save everyone anyway, then what good will it do to pray for them?
    </font>[/QUOTE]But "Election" the way Calvinists have been explaining it means that only the elect will come to faith in God, and that they cannot resist the Grace of God. So why pray for them? If your loved one is not one of the elect, no amount of prayer is going to change that! Is prayer a work? Do our works impress God?

    Chad's question remains unanswered Southern!
     
  17. gopchad

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    No, but maybe I or someone else will. Usually I pray that I will be faithful in fulfilling the Great Commission, and that I will do my part to witness to others. I am not sure that we should say, "Lord, please save Joe." I do not think that is an answerable prayer. I think we can pray "Lord help me to be a witness today, and use me to spread your Good News." Or if are loved ones are far away, "Lord, Send someone to Joe that he might hear and receive the Gospel today."


    Who can know how our decisions forever affect the course of a person's life? Has it ever occured to you that God in His omniscience not only knows the outcome of a man's life, but also all of the possible outcomes of a man's life if he had made better choices.

    In Christ

    Chad
     
  18. gopchad

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    Great way of rewording the OP, and, I think, the major flaw in Calvin's view of election.

    In Christ

    Chad
     
  19. whatever

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    Great way of rewording the OP, and, I think, the major flaw in Calvin's view of election.

    In Christ

    Chad
    </font>[/QUOTE]Our works do not impress God.

    1) We care about our unsaved loved ones. We do not know whether they are elect or not, but we really want them to believe, so we pray for them. If we knew which ones were not chosen for belief then there would be no need to pray for them.

    2) Praying for the lost follows Paul's example (Rom 10:1).

    3) It is not a sin to pray for something that is not in God's will, as long as we are ultimately submissive to God's will (Luke 22:42).

    Now, a question for you. The night before He was crucified Jesus prayed for His followers, and for all of those who would later believe. Why did Jesus explicitly say that He was "not praying for the world" (John 17:9)? I mean, there he is about to die for the sins of the whole world, and yet He only prays for those who already did believe or who would later believe, and He specifically excluded those who wouldn't believe from that prayer. Why would He do that? Doesn't that seem strange to you?
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    Parens are mine.
    The Apostles are elect of God from before the foundation of the world. We are the ones who come to believe because of the Apostle's teaching, not because we are elected from before the foundation of the world.
     

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