Hypocrisy?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Dec 21, 2014.

  1. Protestant

    Protestant
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    'Hypocrisy is the claim or pretense of holding beliefs, feelings, standards, qualities, opinions, behaviors, virtues, motivations, or other characteristics that one does not in actual fact hold. It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another.'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

    (From Calvinism Forum: Is Election Salvation?)

    DHK answering Archangel, re: translation of John 3:16:

    “How can so many people have it wrong for such a long period of time, and still be getting it wrong? How can you be the only one that has it right?
    2,000 years of translations are wrong and Archangel's translation is right.
    Is there any need to check his Greek? No.
    When the "I am right and everyone is wrong" attitude is presented, something is wrong.“

    --------
    DHK answering Kyredneck, re: translation of John 3:16:

    “This is the classic "I am right and everyone else is wrong" regardless of the evidence.”

    --------------------------------------------------------

    But this is the exact argument DHK uses to prove his unique modified Dispensational Futurism is the most correct interpretation of prophetic Scripture.

    Though innumerable myriads of Christians – many martyred as depicted in Rev. 7:9 ff. -- from A. D. 1000 onward have consistently identified Mystery Babylon as the Roman Catholic Church, her ruling Papal head the Antichrist, aka the Beast, aka the Man of Sin, aka the Little Horn, etc., WITH MULTIPLE FORENSIC PROOFS…..DHK knows better.

    He and a small band of unknown ‘scholars’ claim they, and they alone, have been given a special anointing by the Spirit to understand and interpret the prophetic Scriptures correctly, though they cannot, for the life of them, identify the Antichrist who has been 'hiding' in plain sight for centuries.
     
  2. DHK

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    No it is not the same, and you should be ashamed in starting a thread based on a quote like this.
    First, they present a unique translation of a portion of a verse that is not found in any current translation. Then they say their translation is right, even though all other translations disagree with them.
    One of them simply is right because he is right.
    The other is right because "that is what the Greek says," on his own authority.
    Those arguments don't cut it. Not when it comes to translational issues.
    I know languages and I know what happens when people translate from one language to another. You are comparing apples and oranges.

    OTOH, here, we are not talking about translations, but rather about eschatology. The two have nothing in common. I am entitled to my view and you are entitled to yours. It doesn't matter if I don't agree with those of your persuasion or of those who YOU think are of my belief. I have studied through the book of Revelation and written my own commentary. It took me more than a year to preach through through it. I don't need the backing and endorsement of other men.
    And for that you call me a hypocrite?
    I think the shoe is on the other foot.
     
  3. Protestant

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    On the contrary, both have much in common because:

    (1) both deal with biblical truth.

    (2) both deal with majority versus minority opinion.

    Re: biblical translations......your argument was based on the overwhelming number of translations which agree with your view......unlike that of your opponents.

    Re: identity of the Antichrist.....your argument dismisses the overwhelming number of credible orthodox witnesses (many martyred) who present multiple evidentiary forensic proofs that witness against your singular say-so.

    Thank you for finally admitting you have no 'scholarly' supporters.

    Are you now teaching the unbiblical doctrine of 'soul liberty' to preach and teach whatsoever you feel like, though you have no credible biblical co-witnesses to endorse your 'new doctrine'?

    Has Trevor the 'soul liberty' to preach and teach, according to his personal opinion, the non-divinity of Christ?

    Has Walter the 'soul liberty' to preach and teach baptismal regeneration, purgatory and prayers to the dead?

    Did you not know that 1 John 4:1 opposes such misdirected 'soul liberty'?

    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
     
  4. DHK

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    NO.
    One deals with translations.
    The other deals with interpretation, and that in eschatology.
    A red herring. A non sequitor. So what.
    I only had two opponents. Remember that. No one else expressed their view. That was not against the entire Cal camp. You are misrpresenting this. If you took a poll I could almost guarantee you that the majority would agree with me. You do realize that we have both KJVOnly on this board, as well as a great many KJV-preferred. They would not vote for a translation that no one else has.
    First, you don't know that. You don't even know who qualifies as a scholar.
    Your idea of a scholar is Hal Lindsey. It is a joke. You don't know where to look or who to consult. You argument is both from silence and from ignorance. You have no credible or at least very, very few witnesses that you can provide. That leaves you in the dark without an argument to present--just your opinion.
    I have admitted nothing to you.
    What are you? A Catholic in disguise?
    "Protestant" What does that name mean? Anything close to "Reformers?"
    Do you not agree with any of the great "solas" or are you a heretic all together?
    --sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura, sola Chistos, soli Deo Gloria.
    We have the soul liberty to preach and teach the above doctrines in contrast to the condemnation of the RCC who under such Kings and Queens such as Bloody Mary, Queen of Tudor would force us to be a Catholic and worship as one, or be murdered.
    In contrast to the ISIS of today, who in Syria and other parts of the world tell their conquered: "Convert or die." Soul Liberty, a doctrine Baptists died for, is religious tolerance, the right that BB has given you to make the posts that you have made. We are not forcing you to post according to our doctrine.
    America does not have a state-church. They have not taken away your liberty to post as "Protestant" or believe as a Catholic. There is a "church of Satan display right beside the "Birth of Christ 'creche'" on the capitol in Lansing, Michigan. It is religious freedom or soul liberty at the extreme.

    http://news.yahoo.com/satanic-temple-puts-display-michigan-capitol-232144742.html

    Be thankful you have soul liberty, and are not in jail for your beliefs as so many others are:

    Report: Islamic State is turning churches into torture chambers in Iraq and Syria
    http://www.worthynews.com/top/jpost...to-torture-chambers-in-Iraq-and-Syria-385511/
    --What soul liberty?
     
  5. Protestant

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    LOL.

    DHK has now become unglued.

    He would like to believe the Lord has not placed teachers in His one Body by whom the Body would be led, via the Spirit, into all truth.

    DHK needs no teachers. He is his own teacher. The Spirit has private conversations with him alone out of which come his 'private interpretations.'

    Could DHK be a charismatic in disguise? LOL.

    I've no doubt the majority of mature Christians on this board made darn sure of their doctrinal orthodoxy before attempting to pass off their teaching as orthodox Christianity.

    Years and years of study were required, including much prayer, diligence, and perseverance.
     
  6. DHK

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    There is no mystical, esoteric, imaginary, existential, "Body." You are deceived.
    Yes, the Holy Spirit guides and teaches me. Although partially retired now, I have for many years been on the mission field, alone, with my family. You are right--I had no teacher but the Holy Spirit. That is quite literal. We were essentially alone. And as I read and studied my Bible, the Holy Spirit of God taught me. Quite correct.
    There were some Charismatics there unfortunately. They turned out to be my enemy, not my friends.
    There are many Christians here who don't know what they believe, and the little they do know, they don't know why they believe what they believe. The latter, I believe is your case. You don't even know why you have taken the label "Protestant."
    Yes, have you come to that place yet?
     
  7. Protestant

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    Are all the members of the Southern Baptist Convention also deceived?
    Please note: one Church, one Body. The Church and the Body are one and the same.

    This particular section of their Baptist Faith and Message is under the heading ‘The Church.’ http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

    Please note: the chairman of the committee was Adrian Rogers, an open advocate of synergism.

    I mention this in the event you renounce the teaching as ‘Calvinistic.’

    Are you now still adamant that DHK alone is correct and all Southern Baptists deceived?

    Jesus promises the Spirit of truth will guide His people into all truth.

    However, He does not promise all Christians will have infallible understanding of all the truths taught in Scripture, including prophecy.

    Jesus promises that it will not be the Holy Spirit’s ministry to guide Christians into falsehoods.

    That would be the work of devilish false teachers, as well as sinful human pride which dismisses the testimony of recognized teachers through the Ages.

    Having followed your posts this past year, I’ve no doubt as to your sincerity, zeal and salvation.

    However, I have could not but note deficiency on your part in two particular areas:

    (1) Your understanding of how, exactly, you came to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, while multitudes of others who heard the Gospel preached do not. You readily admit men love darkness rather than light, yet you intentionally neglect to consider how it was that your love of darkness became love of the light.

    (2) Your cavalier dismissal of 2,000 years of Church history, as well as the innumerable Christian witnesses through the Ages, both from the schooled and non-schooled, the martyred and persecuted, who consistently corroborate each other as to the solution of the mysterious identities of Mystery Babylon and the Man of Sin aka Antichrist.

    I agree there is a sad lack of theological knowledge among too many professing Christians. I do not agree that those who post regularly on this board are among the ignorant. They have no trouble defending their views, whether sound or unsound.

    Several months ago I gave a detailed explanation as to the meaning of the nomenclature, ‘Protestant.’

    Perhaps you were in the mission field that day and missed the post.

    In simple terms it is one who testifies before men and God the truth of God’s Word.

    A Protestant is a Christian witness for the truth, as well as a Christian witness against the enemy’s ongoing quest to pervert the truth.

    Your soteriological and prophetic views (specifically concerning the Revelation and Antichrist) are those also held by the arch enemy of Christ and His true Church: The Papacy and Roman Catholic Church.

    Surely that ‘coincidence’ alone would give any intelligent, spirit-filled child of God pause to re-examine one’s doctrines in a spirit of humility, while keeping an open mind to the possibility of error.

    The question remains as to whether or not a humble, teachable spirit exists in such a one as DHK.
     
  8. JamesL

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    What do you mean "His people" ?? Jesus was talking directly with the twelve when He spoke that. The Holy Spirit guided only the apostles into all truth. They preached it, and some wrote it.

    If this was a promise to every believer, then there would never be a doctrinal disagreement between believers. ALL truth, right?

    Anyone with the slightest variant understanding must not have the Spirit, for the Spirit will most assuredly lead the genuine believer into all truth, right?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    In John 16 and 17 you have the teaching of Christ which Christ said 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; "

    Thus in Matt 28 the disciples were to teach everyone else all that they were taught.

    So in 1John 2 -- John tells us 'you have no need for anyone to teach you -for his Anointing teaches you"
     
  10. JamesL

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    It is abundantly clear that Jesus was speaking directly to the apostles, and about them.

    John 14:17 "This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world canmot receive..."

    Verse 20 "On that day, you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

    Verse 22 "Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him 'Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us, and not the whole world?' "

    Verse 25 "I have said these things to you while I am still with you."

    Verse 26 "But the Holy Spirit...will teach you everything, and remind you of all I have said to you."

    15:26-27 "When the Advocate comes...He will testify on My behalf. You are also to testify because you have been with Me from the beginning ."

    16:4 "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you ."

    16:12-13 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..."


    He spoke those words to the apostles, about the apostles
    Also...

    16:32 "the hour is coming...you will be scattered, each one to his own home, and you will leave Me alone. "

    In 17:12 "I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one who was destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled."

    18:8-9 "if you are looking for Me, let these men go." This was to fulfill the word that He had spoken "I did not lose a single one of those whom You gave to Me"


    There isn't anything in what Jesus said that should suggest every believer will be guided into all truth. That was a promise made to those present. Virtually everything He said that night was specific to that audience
     
    #10 JamesL, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2014
  11. Getting it Right

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    One of the critical questions everyone must ask!!! Let's hear it for audience!!!!

    :applause:
     
  12. Protestant

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    Your argument, when examined with care, negates a sound hermeneutical principle.

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

    In the immediate context, Jesus was speaking to His disciples.

    Yet while there is an immediate context, there is at the same time a universal context applicable to all generations by which Christians born of the Spirit are to understand that it is the Holy Spirit who is their ultimate Teacher, the Spirit of truth.

    Without the Spirit’s illumination, no man would understand the things of the Spirit of God.

    Furthermore, the Spirit gives gifts to Christians, not the least of which is the gift of teaching.

    Not all teachers are expert in every subject.

    Nonetheless, no matter the subject they endeavor to teach it behooves them to teach it correctly.

    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

    Would you not agree that there are certain fundamental doctrines which must be believed in order to be considered ‘Christian’?

    There are truths which Christians MUST get right.

    It is into these truths that the Holy Spirit will lead all His Christian people truthfully.

    Furthermore, because it is God who teaches, He cannot fail to teach His people that which must be believed in order to salvation.

    As stated in my previous post, Jesus does not promise the Holy Spirit will lead all Christians into an infallible understanding of every biblical truth.

    However, when a truth is taught by the Spirit, it will be completely truthful and contain no error.

    The truth in dispute with DHK concerns the Body of Christ, the Church of Christ, the Bride of Christ, whether they are one and the same.

    Unfortunately his dispensational looking glass has distorted his biblical vision.

    Disparity of Views

    You mention disparity of views.

    Not all are damning.

    Let’s look at the issue of baptism.

    Through an unbiased careful examination of the two primary evangelical positions – infant water baptism vs. believer’s water baptism – (I am not including the RCC doctrine of baptismal regeneration which is unbiblical and which most evangelicals do not believe) – it is not difficult to conclude that both positions have scriptural support. Their disparate interpretations did not materialize out of thin air.

    Therefore, there are three possible positions as to the disparity:

    (1) One interpretation is in error.

    (2) Both interpretations are in error.

    (3) Neither interpretation is in error due to the lack of a specific universally recognized commandment regarding infants, pro or con.

    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


    If there is but one true baptism as Scripture declares, it is impossible that the Spirit of truth has neglected to teach that fundamental truth to either side for hundreds of years, whether they be Baptist or not.

    Thus, the unbiased truth seeker must conclude that the ‘one baptism’ stressed in the above Scripture must be that which is not given by men, but rather given by the Spirit.

    And is not that baptism of the Spirit the same about which John the Baptist speaks?

    John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    And is not this Holy Spirit baptism the same about which Jesus speaks?

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    Whether Baptist or not, ALL parties believe in the necessity of the new birth by the Spirit.

    Thus, they are all in agreement as to the necessity and identity of the ‘one baptism’ of Ephesians 4:5, whether they discern an agreement or not.

    Arminian Arguments

    Arminians use your argument of immediate context as the only credible rule of interpretation when dealing with John 15:16:

    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Arminians insist Jesus is speaking of choosing them for apostolic office thereby negating the consideration that the biblical doctrine of election by sovereign grace is being taught.

    Furthermore, if we take the immediate context as the only credible rule of interpretation, then we cannot and should not be concerned with the Old Testament which, to be consistent, should not apply to us.

    Yet Paul tells us, Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Pre-Cross vs. Post-Cross

    And then there are the arguments using pre-cross vs. post-cross.

    Those who insist water baptism is necessary for salvation are not stymied when reminded of the thief on the cross who was promised to be in Paradise with Jesus that very day, though he was not baptized in water.

    They simply use the ‘pre-cross’ theory.

    Jesus had not yet died, therefore the thief could not have been ‘baptized into Christ’s death.’

    Thus, they say there was never any need for water baptism.

    Scripture speaks to all Christians in all generations

    Scripture speaks to all Christians in all generations because:

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    ‘All Scripture’ includes the words Jesus speaks to His disciples.

    PS Ephesians 4:4 is yet another Scripture which proves Christ has only one body of believers, despite DHK's outcry to the contrary.
     
  13. JamesL

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    I never denied that the Spirit guides us and teaches us, enlightens, illumihates, etc

    What I do reject is the ALL truth scenario. That was a specific promise for the apostles. It doesn't take a hermeneutic genius to get that from the text.

    Like I said, divergent views within the body disproves the theory that it was a promise to believers en masse.

    If one subscribes to infant baptism and one rejects it, there is no possible way both can be right. The only possibilities are that the Spirit, in fact, has NOT guided some genuine believers into all truth, or those in error have not the Spirit.

    As for Ephesians 4 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", you've missed the application through missing the context. Paul was writing about unity, not a doctrine of being baptized.

    Landmarkists use that verse to reject Spirit baptism, saying water is the only baptism
    Hyper-Dispensationalists use that verse to reject water baptism, saying Spirit baptism is the only baptism for the Body of Christ


    I suppose we've been given a double-minded Spirit? One who led two different groups into opposing views? Maybe those two opposing views are both true? I'd like to see how that could work
     
  14. Protestant

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    Having clearly and patiently explained the 'all truth scenario' in my previous post, you apparently are 'too intelligent' to discern the obvious.

    Are you among the swelling Pro-Papist crowd in your theological and prophetic outlook?
     
  15. JamesL

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    perhaps. But I can read the text



    swelling Pro-Papist crowd? Who do you hang around with?
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    The absolute truth was granted unto the apostles of the lord jesus, as well as to all who penned down sacred scriptures, but even they did not fully at times grasp and realise all of it, as evidenced by peter stating to us that even at themes the OT Prophets did not fully grasp and understand what the Holy Spirit had inspired them to record down for us...

    Since even peter founf some things hard to fully understand in Pauline theology, why would none of us at times have same issues fully understanding the fullness of the revelation given to us in the word of God>
     

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