" Hypothetical Depravity " ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Apr 26, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I am reading a book by Bruce demarest called : The Cross And Salvation " . I came across the following on page 240 .

    John Wesley (d.1791) held a lively doctrine of original sin and depravity . Yet depravity is only hypothetical , since the "preventing grace" that flows from the cross reverses the debilitating effects of original sin . Thus all persons from birth are blessed with free will , in the sense of the power of contraty choice . According to Wesley , prevenient grace enables the unregenerate to (1) hear the voice of God in conscience , (2) acknowledge responsibility for sins , (3) seek righteousness , and (4) trust Christ for salvation .
     
  2. Allan

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    And...

    What are you looking for, or asking??
     
  3. npetreley

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    In other words, prevenient grace turned everyone into a person who could earn salvation by works? I mean, how thin is the hair between that and what you quoted above? I'm not sure there is even a hair's breadth between the two.
     
  4. skypair

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    See, to me, this part is mysticism. No explanation comes as to how the cross changes original sin as it is transmitted father to son. Of course, I don't believe original sin passes anyway. The only thing I can see that passes down is sin nature.

    Once again, if the soul that sins is dead to God, then it is the still living spirit/brain that hears and, if believed, refers the matter to the conscience/soul for evaluation of good or evil. A decision "up or down"/"go or wait" ususally results from this spiritual evaluation and if up/go, a soul-reviving decision will be made causing repentance and the "new birth"/regeneration.

    skypair
     
  5. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    What the author fails to understand is that we are not born with the ability to these things. It is only when the Holy Ghost empowers us by the convicting of the heart. His characterization is false.
     
  6. DQuixote

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    Wow........ If these chapter headings mean what they say, I'm certain that I won't find time to read the book. A couple of chapter headings are troubling: “The Doctrine of Election”, "The Progress of Salvation", and "The Perfecting of Salvation." Perhaps someone can clear that up.

    Now this, by skypair:

    Try this, skypair:

    Soul = mind, will, emotions, the attitudes and behaviors of the flesh -- a function of brain.

    The soul (the flesh, the person), who remains in sin (who is "without Christ") is lost, dead to God. If he/she hears the Word of Truth and responds affirmatively, then he/she is born again. Only the pleading of the Holy Spirit alerts that one who is lost to come out of sin.

    Spirit (small s) is the spirit of righteousness imparted to every Believer at the instant of the born again experience (we are considered to be righteous from that moment on).

    Rewrite your paragraph with those values in mind. (......and for those who say that, that implies works, works follow salvation. Receiving Christ as Savior has zero, zilch, nada to do with works).

    :thumbs:
     
    #6 DQuixote, Apr 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2007
  7. skypair

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    DQuixote --- I've tried it that way. For me, it just never worked. Here's why:

    1) Doesn't it make more sense to you that the Holy Spirit of God (His mind, emotions, and will) would commune with our spirits (mind, emotions, and will) even in conviction of sin before salvation?

    2) What dies when we sin, DQ? Who are we separated from? Our soul dies ("The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die.") Right? But we're NOT brain dead at that point, are we? We are "conscience dead" to God. We begin to go about doing everything by our own standards, not God's, when we first sin. It's called picking the "expedient" way instead of God's way whenever any good in our conscience objects.

    3) Indeed, I find that we are made in God's triune image -- God/soul, Spirit/spirit and body/Christ. And that is how we are saved -- first the soul is justified (given "the righteousness of GOD). Then our spirit is sanctified by the indwelling SPIRIT whereby we have "the mind of Christ." Finally, our bodies will be glorified by Christ at His return.

    4) Ergo, the soul corresponds to God and our soul, being the "throne" of our lives is where God ought to sit. Our spirit (intellect, emotions, will) is where we hear and process the Word and where a decision is made to repent and receive (reorient our conscience) OR reject (keep living as if there is no Higher Power than our own standards). This makes our spirits the "battlefield" between God and Satan just as the Bible states! Lastly, our bodies are to be "conformed to the image of Christ" both in this life and "when we shall see Him!"

    I cannot find one "loose end" but would be glad to hear your thoughts on this. To me, the topic is both illuminating and exciting!

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2007
  8. DQuixote

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    I've been out of pocket for a few days, Skypair. Think about this.

    Quoting Skypair:
    The Holy Spirit of God is the Third Person of the Trinity. Mind, emotions, and will, have nothing to do with that. God is Spirit. Our spirits are not mind, emotions and will. Our spirits have right standing before God because of Christ. Mind, emotions, and will have nothing to do with our spirit. Mind, emotions, and will equal soul. Combined, they are a function of brain. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That means that the person who never receives Christ will die in his/her sin.

    Don't confuse separation from God in this life and eternal separation. The separated soul in this life is simply that: separated, lost. In eternity, the soul (mind, will, emotions, a function of brain) dies; the person is eternally separated from God. The nature of the entity that endures eternal torment is mindless, will-less, emotionless torment, sort of like a person in a coma. And entirely alone. Alone. No ability to think of ways of escape. No will to escape. And remember: no tormentor with a pitchfork or bowls of hot oil will be permitted to survive God's judgment in order to torture you. That's heresy. The torment is of your own making. Outside of God's protection for eternity = torment. We simply cannot find enough words to describe that horror.

    Well, your analysis is a little labored. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We are soul (brain), inhabiting a body, until we receive Christ as Savior. His righteouness is then imparted to us (spirit) so that when he looks at you he does not see sin, He sees the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, we will receive glorified bodies when we are caught up to meet Him in the air.

    Again, your analysis is flawed. The soul does not correspond to God. That is heresy. Our spirit is not our intellect, emotions, will. It is the spirit of righteousness imparted to us, utterly without spot or blemish. You are correct that God communicates through our spirit. However, He completely bypasses intellect, emotions, and will. We do not make a decision to repent or to deny from the spirit, since no spirit has been imparted to us prior to our repentance, or more specifically, prior to that point where we become aware of the Holy Spirit coming alongside to minister to us about God's amazing grace.

    At that point the Holy Spirit strives to convince us that God is who He says He is and that all His promises are true -- that He is, in fact, our one-way ticket out of this miserable placed called earth. We can believe it and instantly be born again (the spirit of righteousness imparted to us), or we can continue on our pathway to the Great White Throne Judgment and eternal separation. If we believe, repentance is incorporated into our belief -- our outlook is instantly changed, our feet planted permanently on higher ground, often without an altar call or "sinner's prayer." There is great joy for some, often tears of joy. For others it is the gentle awareness of His Presence. Whoa! Sweet awareness! The radiance of the inner splendor! Wow!

    The battlefield, then, is between the old nature (the flesh) and the new nature (the spirit). Satan fires broadsides at the flesh (the mind, will, emotions, functions of brain), God builds (underline builds several times) hedges of steel around us, continuously enabling us to resist until that day when Satan's broadsides merely bounce off, or are thrown back at him. The image of Christ that we are conformed to is the spirit of righteousness within.

    When we yield to the flesh, to sin, we open up our steel barrier to Satan's onslaught. Through prayer, quoting scripture, meeting with the saints, Bible study, we close the barrier again. In short, we confess (1 John 1:9) that we blew it, and He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, restoring that spirit of righteousness to loving Holiness. The image that we are conformed to for eternity is indeed a Holy new creature, our entire being the essence of holiness.

    Take a couple of days to sort this out. Don't fire off a response right away. And ignore the naysayers, please. 1 Corinthians 2:1-16.
     
    #8 DQuixote, May 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2007

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