Featured I am a false convert, love my sin, and headed to hell!!

Brother Wes, God works differently with different people. I know regeneration preceeds conversion, but to the length betwixt the two, I don't know.

Remember this....God saw us as a finished work from the foundation of the world. He saw us in heaven then, being omnipresent. He saw the sheep and goats from the very creation of this world. I, personally, don't think they're regenerated for years, but months possibly...

 

I believe the word of God shows that a person is born again AFTER they believe.

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This scripture shows that first our sins are forgiven by obeying or believing the gospel. This is when we are born again by the word of God.

So, it is hearing and believing the word of God that causes you to be born again, not being born again that causes you to believe.

 

Hearing the word of God, or better yet, understanding it, shows God has begun His work. This is regeneration, imo...

 

That's not what this scripture says, it says we are born again or regenerated BY the word of God. The word of God was the means by which we are born again. So you must hear and believe the word of God before you can be born again.

This is the exact same thing that John 1:12-13 says.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

To those persons who believed on Jesus, to these persons God gave the power to be born again and become the sons of God.

But there is more that shows we are born again BY the word of God.

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Again, scripture shows the word of truth (the word of God) is the means by which we are born again.

You cannot be born again until you hear the word of God. The word of God is the means that causes a man to be born again. The word of God comes first.

 

Those that doeth the truth, cometh to the Light. This shows God's work in regeneration precedes those who come to the Light/Him. And John says they are born of God, and not the will of the flesh, neither the will of man, but born of God.

 

The light we sinners came out of the darkness into the light, sinners that can't admit they are sinners are still in the darkness.

Darkness is not evil, it is only the evil men do hiding in the darkness is evil.

God loved the world that He sent His Son, so God first loved us a sinner before most of us were even thought of so that that whosoever believes in Jesus shall have eternal life

A carnal mind all of us have can't comprehend the scripture so we are not to trust ourselves, but God as the scripture teaches to prepare the way do not lean on your own understand but trust in the Lord.

Jesus will teach you when you listen and learn and lead you to life eternal.

Regeneration before faith preaching to people who already have life is a residue left over from Hyper-Calvinist teaching not Calvinism that Spurgeon preached against.

Calvinist Gospel is Jesus came to save sinners unregenerate sinners and I am the worst. There is four books from witnesses of all that happened the Gospel that we are witness of, not the condensed version, even the one verse Gospel

No man has life before they eat none, men want the condensed version that ignore human responsibility. I will let Spurgeon explain. Are you truly lifted up God or your own understanding and others?


http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0442.htm


"The great controversy which for many ages has divided the Christian Church has hinged on the difficult question of “the will.” Without a doubt that conflict has done much harm to the Christian Church, but I will also say, that it has been loaded with immeasurable usefulness; for it has thrust forward before the minds of Christians, precious truths, which without it, might have been kept in the shade. I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there is a class of strong-minded, hard-headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility; and another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty. I believe there is a need for this in the finite character of the human mind, for the natural lethargy of the Church requires a kind of healthy irritation to arouse her powers and to stimulate her actions. The pebbles in the living stream of truth are worn smooth and round by friction. Who among us would wish to suspend a law of nature whose effects on the whole are good? I glory in that which at the present day is so much spoken against-sectarianism, for “sectarianism” is the jargon phrase which our enemies use for all firm religious belief. I find it applied to all sorts of Christians; no matter what views he may hold, if a man is earnest, he is quickly labeled a sectarian. Success to sectarianism, let it live and flourish, for the day it ceases then we can say farewell to the power of godliness.

When each of us cease to maintain our own views of truth, and to maintain those views firmly and strenuously, then truth will fly away, and only error will reign: this, indeed, is the objective of our foes: under the cover of attacking sects, they attack true religion, and would drive it, if they could, off the face of the earth. In the controversy which has raged-a controversy which, I again say, I believe to have been really healthy, and which has done us all a vast amount of good-in this controversy mistakes have arisen from two reasons. Some brethren have completely forgotten one category of truths, and then, in the next place, they have gone too far with others. We all have one blind eye, and too often we are like Admiral Nelson in the battle, we put the telescope to that blind eye, and then complain that we cannot see. I have heard of one man who said he had read the Bible through thirty-four times on his knees, but could not see a word about election in it; I think it very likely that he couldn’t; kneeling is a very uncomfortable posture for reading, and possibly the superstition which would make the poor man perform this penance would disqualify him for using his reason: moreover, to go through the Bible thirty-four times, he probably read in such a hurry that he did not know what he was reading, and might as well have been dreaming over “Robinson Crusoe” as the Bible. He put the telescope to the blind eye. Many of us do that; we do not want to see a truth, and therefore we say we cannot see it.

On the other hand, there are others who push a truth too far. “This is good; oh! this is precious!” they say, and then they think it is good for everything; that in fact it is the only truth in the world. You know how often things are injured by too much praise; how a good medicine, which really was a great treatment for a certain disease, comes to be utterly despised by the physician, because a certain quack has praised it as being a universal cure; so exaggerated praise in a specific doctrine leads to dishonor. Truth has thus suffered on all sides; on the one hand brethren refuse to see the truth, and on the other hand they magnified what they do see way out of proportion. Have you seen those mirrors, which when you walk up to them, you see your head ten times as large as your body, or you walk away and put yourself in another position, and then your feet are monstrous and the rest of your body is small; this is an ingenious toy, but I am sorry to say that many approach God's truth using the model of this toy; they magnify one basic truth until it becomes monstrous; they minimize and speak little of another truth till it becomes completely forgotten. In what I say this morning you will probably detect the failing to which I allude, the common fault of humanity, and suspect that I also am magnifying one truth at the expense of another; but I will say this, before I proceed further, that it will not be the case if I can help it, for I will honestly endeavor to bring out the truth as I have learned it, and if you believe that I am teaching you what is contrary to the Word of God, reject it; but be aware, if it is according to God's Word, then reject it at your peril; for once I have delivered it to you, if you do not receive it, then the responsibility lies with you.

This morning, there are two things that I will have to talk about. The first is, that the work of salvation rests on the will of God, and not on the will of man; and secondly, the equally sure doctrine, that the will of man has its proper position in the work of salvation, and is not to be ignored...."

C.H. Spurgeon
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If God so loved the world, then why do people die as sinners? The world doesn't mean any and all w/o exception. There are third world citizens who never knew Jesus existed, and still died lost.

 

The world does mean all the world not as man sees world but as God sees world that He sent His Son, not that the world would be saved, but that He sent His Son,

That whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life, man is responsible if they do not come to Jesus for life.

No man has an excuse because God loved the world that He sent His Son.

We are messengers of that Gospel, and man is responsible for their actions.

 

Willis, you are assuming that all persons who never hear the gospel are lost. There is scripture to support that God takes into consideration what a person knows.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

The scriptures say that those persons who did not know his lord's will, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Now, I do not know exactly what this means, and do not want to speculate, but God certainly takes into account those persons who do not hear the gospel, and their punishment is less severe.

 

Willis, how can a person be spiritually alive before they believe the gospel and their sins are forgiven? Does that make sense?

Why are we spiritually dead? Isn't it because "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"?

So how can you be alive before you believe? It is nonsensical, even for a few seconds, even for a millionth of one second.

That said, if you believe a person can be alive for even one second before they believe, what difference does it make? Sproul's view makes sense if you believe a person can be spiritually alive and still dead in sins at the same time. I believe that is impossible.

 

Brother Wes, how can they call on Jesus, whom they have not believed? They can't. How can they believe in Jesus, whom they haven't heard? They can't. How can they hear without a preacher? They can't. God uses means to bring His sheep out from amongst the goats. It's the gospel of the risen Saviour, Jesus Christ. So, where does it leave those who never knew about Jesus? On the outside of the sheepfold, being goats.

 

Look at the logical order of these verses, Brother Wes:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who were born of God were regenerated. They were given the power to believe on His name. The power of being born from above was given by God...then they received Him.




John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Those who were doing the truth, came to the Light, which proved that the deeds they were doing, faith, repentance, Godly sorrow &c., are wrought in God. It doesn't say they came to the Light to do the truth, but doing the truth and coming to the Light. It's cause and effect. They first had a Godly sorrow, which leads to a true God given repentance.




1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Everyone who loveth, is born of God. Another verse that shows the birth from above being a precursor to our believing in Him.




Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Unless God first starts a work in a man's heart...soul...man has no desire to come to Him. He has not the faculties to do so, seing he is a fallen creature. I can find no support where He will be merciful to everyone without exception. I do find, however, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and harden whom He will harden....

 

I did not misrepresent Spurgeon, I only posted that part of his sermon that agreed with my point, and it DID agree with my point.

Spurgeon said it is unnecessary and ridiculous to preach the gospel and bid a man to believe who is already regenerated and saved. And he is 100% correct.

But what Spurgeon did not seem to realize is that Calvinism teaches than an unregenerate man cannot possibly understand the gospel. I have seen Calvinists quote 1 Cor 2:14 over and over again right here at BB to say that the unregenerate man cannot understand spiritual matters.

In addition to that, Calvinism teaches that an unregenerate man has a wicked heart of stone. He hates God and everything about God. He is not willing to repent, indeed it is impossible for him to be willing to repent, because he is completely enslaved by his wicked sin nature. And he cannot believe the gospel as well.

Now this is ridiculous doctrine. It is absolutely useless to preach the gospel to an unregenerate man, because he cannot understand it, and it is impossible for him to repent and believe it.

But it is just as ridiculous to preach the gospel to a regenerate man, because he is already saved. He doesn't NEED to hear the gospel.

This renders the gospel absolutely USELESS.

Now, if you can't see how messed up this is, I can't help you.

Now Willis argues that a regenerate man is not saved, but that is ridiculous too. How can you be born again, a child of God and not saved? Nonsense.

Calvinism doesn't make sense.

 

Brother Wes, everything you just refuted here....I deleted some of it, btw...is found all over the bible...

 

All men everywhere are responsible to worship God.They do not do so because the fall has left them totally depraved to a point where they will not give up sin...the love sin and hate God and His law/word.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

The reject Jesus as LORD. They love sin and idols of the heart instead...that is why.:thumbs:

 

The condition of the heart:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Proverbs 10:20 The tongue of the righteous is choice silver, but the heart of the wicked is of little value.


Proverbs 15:28 The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil.


Proverbs 21:4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart – the unplowed field of the wicked – produce sin.


This is the condition of the hearts of sinners.....

 

Sinners and the gospel:


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

Short and directly to the point....much better:thumbs:

 

Nowhere does the Bible teach that sinners are unable to repent and believe, the scriptures show that they can, and do.

Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The gospel enables sinners to repent and believe, and when they do they are regenerated and saved, which are one in the same as Spurgeon correctly said.

But that is not what Calvinism teaches, Calvinism teaches that a sinner cannot repent and believe the gospel. This denies the power of the gospel. Calvinism believes an extra work must be performed, God must first regenerate a sinner before he can repent and believe. It is not the gospel that converts a man in Calvinism, it is a separate work called regeneration.