I believe in predestination and free will.....??

The Mission of the Nation Israel in the Work of Jesus Christ

The Bible begins with the story of God’s creative activity. The culmination of that creation was the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. When God created Adam and Eve he created them upright, or righteous, fully capable of freely choosing between good and evil. When God placed Adam and Eve in Eden He gave instructions as to their responsibility [Genesis 2:15-17].

After Adam and Eve sinned in Eden God took the initiative, sought out Adam and Eve, and, in His grace, provided a covering for their nakedness, their sin. That covering required the shedding of innocent blood, in this case the blood of animals. This covering, however, was only provisional, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice that was to come. God then gives mankind the initial promise of a redeemer [Genesis 3:14-15], that perfect sacrifice, the seed or offspring of woman alone who would bruise the head of Satan, that is defeat him.

This initial promise, the initial revelation and the initiation in time of the Covenant of Grace, is veiled to say the least and could not be understood without the continuing revelation of God. But God does not leave us without hope. As the Biblical history of man unfolds so does God’s purpose of redemption.

If the Redeemer was to be born of a woman and that birth was to take place in history the way must be prepared. The Redeemer must be identified with God since He was to reconcile sinful man to God and since He was a man, the seed of a woman, He must be identified with the people of God. It was necessary, therefore, that God call out a people for His Name. Unto that people would be given the oracles of God [Romans 3:2] and through that people would come the promised Redeemer.

In due time God called out of idolatry a man named Abram [Genesis 12:1-3], changed his name to Abraham [Genesis 17:5] and promised that in his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed [Genesis 22:18]. The Apostle Paul tells us that seed of Abraham through which all the nations of the earth would be blessed was Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:16, KJV
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

As time passed the lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was further defined: Abraham’s son Isaac to the exclusion of Ishmael [Genesis 17:18-22], Isaac’s son Jacob to the exclusion of Esau [Genesis 28:10-15]. Out of Jacob would come twelve sons and the infant nation Israel which God, consistent with His promise to Abraham [Genesis 15:12-16], moved to Egypt. In Egypt the lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was further defined: Jacobs son Judah to the exclusion of the eleven [Genesis 49:8-10].

Under God’s providential care that nation of some 70 people [Genesis 46:27] which emigrated to Egypt grew to a great nation of several hundred thousand people. God brought the entire Hebrew nation, the children of Israel, into a covenant relation with Himself when He delivered them from bondage in Egypt . As with Abraham the covenant was unilaterally imposed by God with the promise:

Exodus 19:5, KJV
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
and the requirement:

Exodus 19:6a KJV
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

God gave the Hebrew nation the Ten Commandments, the Ark of the Covenant, and the tabernacle with its ordinances thet they might become a ‘holy nation’ in a pagan world . The remainder of the Old Testament Scripture shows the utter failure of the nation Israel to meet the requirements of the covenant. Yet Scripture also shows that for ~1800 years this people, a chosen vessel through which the ‘seed of woman’ is to be born, were under the providential care of God. Within that nation Israel there was at all times a people faithful to God, spiritual Israel, the Church in the wilderness [Acts 7:38].

The lineage of the ‘seed of woman’ was preserved and further defined eventually leading to David, a man after God’s own heart, all under the care of Sovereign God. As the lineage was further defined so was the mission and identity of the ‘seed’. He would be born of a virgin, thus fulfilling the promise made in Eden [Genesis 3:15]. God speaks through the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 7:14, KJV
14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

He would establish a kingdom that would stand forever [not a kingdom that would last only one thousand years]:

Daniel 2:44, KJV
44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7:13,14, KJV
13. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

And He would suffer for the sins of His people:

Isaiah 53:4-6, KJV
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Now all this was prophesied to take place in history and did take place in history. God, through the writers of the New Testament speaks. The Apostle Matthew writes:

Matthew 1:21, KJV
21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke tells us that the virgin conceived through the power of God and that the fruit of her womb, this ‘seed of woman’, was the promised redeemer, the Son of God.

Luke 1:26, 27, 35, KJV
26. And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the Galatians writes:

Galatians 4:4, KJV
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The promised Redeemer, the Son of God, the ‘seed of woman’ promised in Eden, is born of the virgin Mary to be rejected and crucified by ‘national’ Israel. Israel’s action in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was according to the eternal purpose of God: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:[Acts 2:23, KJV]. The Kingdom they mistakenly thought was exclusively for them was taken away and given to another people:

Matthew 21:43, KJV
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

What nation was to be the recipient of the Kingdom of God? The obvious answer is the Church. However, for certainty we turn to Scripture. We read in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 12:32, KJV
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The ‘little flock’ is the Church, the ‘called out’ ones, who would bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom. For those who would insist that the Church cannot be identified as a ‘nation’ we turn to the writings of the Apostle Peter in which he uses the language of Exodus 18:5,6 to describe the Church:

1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

There is no Scripture in the New Testament that indicates that the judgment pronounced against Israel in Matthew 21:43 was or ever will be revoked. Therefore, it still stands. The Kingdom belongs to the little flock, the Church. The mission of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of redemption had been accomplished.

You are deliberately contradicting Scripture in order to make some unknown point!

Galatians 3:29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Where?

 

You want to know why Calvinism bothers me most? My precious children. I believe, based on scripture, that each of my children will be invited by Christ to accept the gift of salvation. Unless I'm misunderstanding, predestination, as mentioned by many previous posters, chooses one, maybe, two, and if I'm lucky, all five of my children. I can't see a merciful God choosing to send any of my children to hell. I see a merciful God with open arms, waiting for my children to come to Him. If they don't, it was their choice.

 

I believe both Jacob and Israel were chosen (elect).

 

The one thing I would add to this is the fact one of our children spend eternity in hell...I would have loved my children more than God did during my life. I think it's almost blasphemous to think a mere human can love someone more than a sovereign God, particularly when the very essence of God's core is love.

 

double post

 

My people perish from a lack of knowledge...

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.


V-RPP-NPM
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: peRfect
Voice: Passive
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative)
Number: Plural
Gender: Masculine

You do know what the Passive voice means, right?

Wrong.

http://www.wisereader.com/index.php/category/reviews/reformed-theology/

BTW, you think that it IS a good idea to mock opposing theological ideas, based on scripture? Do you not recognize your own fallibility? Have you no fear of the Lord?

My doctrine is proven well enough.

 

I guess this is what makes Calvinism the most appealing for me. I know that my children's destiny is going to be determined by perfectly just, righteous creator: not by my fallen children's ability to understand and respond. I know I can just stay in prayer, training my children, and trust God.

Were I to choose the alternative to Calvinism, I would go completely nuts. I would be constantly worrying about my complete inadequacy to convince my children of the truth of Christ. I would be trying to brain wash them. I would be biting my nails night and day, trying to figure out ways to convince them.

Because I know the doctrines of Grace are true, though, I can rest easy knowing that, while I do have a responsibility to train up my children and teach them the truth, it is ultimately up to the Lord: and what better hands could such a decision be in?

I liken "arminianism" to a man in a boat, with a lake full of young drowning children. Instead of grabbing them by their hands and pulling them into the boat, he says "Get in the boat if you want to be saved".

I am glad I have a Heavenly father that grabs me and pulls me into the boat.

 

Quite the unfounded accusation. What if I said calvinism is based on "feeling" (anger, hate...fear ) than Scripture?

 

I'm glad I'm not an arminian

How can you keep a straight face and say justice is the "choice" between one thing, and that one thing only, and being judged on not choosing that which is never a choice, or for accepting a Christ who didn't come to save them? That's not even justice to flawed mankind!

 

I will not continue to debate this. It's too personal. I'm not basing my beliefs on "feelings" but on scripture. You will say the same thing. And here we go, 'round and 'round the mullberry bush.

God is not willing that any should perish. He sent His Darling Son, a gift to the world. It is up to man to receive His eternal gift. I'm glad that the Lord saw fit to reach down His hand to me and save me from drowning. I'm also thankful that His hand is extended still, to whosever will.

Thank you for the discussion and good night.

 

That is what the "arminian" (and yes, you are, at least on this point "arminian") doesn't get: we have all ALREADY MADE the choice to which you refer: and we all chose to reject God. God now chooses whom He will save ANYWAY; which is why the doctrines of Grace are CALLED the "doctrines of grace": it is all about His grace, not our wise decision.

Again, you give us a freedom of choice not even God Himself has: the ability to choose something we do not want, that goes against our natures. You exalt man's will to be greater than God's.

 

Does that mean there was an election of the already elect? I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. You see Calvinist use the instance of Jacob and Esau to prove election to Salvation.

God is right. But haven't you taken the meaning to the extreme.

We may be counted as the seed of Abraham in respect to the inheritance but we are not literal seed of Abraham. We are still adopted we cannot be both naturalized and adopted at the same time.
There is no distinction because Christ died for the whole world that we all might be saved. Particular election requires the distinction.

To bad you didn't get to see my last post before you made this claim.
This is how it comes out if read in the Greek;
"Hearing and the nations rejoiced and glorfied the word of the Lord And believed as many as were appointed to life eternal."

The whole of Calvinism is man made think about it.
To bad you didn't get to see my last post before you made this claim.

This depends on whether it has been theorized. If it were literal it would have said "we Jews and Gentiles alike" It didn't say it that way did it?

Try reading the Bible if you don't reinterpret it you might actually see it.
I'll give you a hint, It's called "lying." This is what calling your self something you aren't, really is.

MB

 

It isn't my perception of what appointed means but how it is applied in scripture. We were not appointed to believe as you would have. That I have already proven that but we were appointed to eternal life because we believe.

It seems accusations is all you're capable of. This discussion is not about me. You have now made it personal. Why? I have not mocked your theology but just flat out reject it. This is a debate forum which means point and counter point conversation. Sure I make mistakes from time to time no one is perfect.

Why do you accuse me of not fearing God. Is it just because I disagree with you? I have no fear of you maybe that what you meant to say. What angers you is that I just took your misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture and showed you what scriture actually says. A discussion with you is not disrespect of God.

Maybe it would be wise to take a deep breath and relax and come back to the conversation when you have composed yourself a little better. You really should check your anger at the door.

If so where is your self control? Why are you making accussations instead of getting into the word and proving what you claim is true.
All I see is false accussations from you.
MB

 

You have chosen this verse to prove that God elects Gentiles. Yet at the same time, the Calvinist uses this verse to prove God elects individuals for salvation, not a group.

If this verse proves that a group (Gentiles) was elected for salvation before the foundation of the world, that would prove that God offers salvation to all, as the scripture attests to, but the Calvinist denies.

So it seems that you have backed yourself into a corner.

 

Jesus told Israel, "I WOULD, YOU WOULDN"T",

Who's "feeling" prevailed???

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

If Israel had been "predestined" to reject Jesus, then Jesus's offer wasn't a valid offer, and against the "predestined will of God".

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Israel had a "Choice", and so do we.

 

God's love is also just. Man cannot love another more than God. "For God so loved"...