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I believe in predestination and free will.....??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    OldRegular,I've appreciated your John Dagg quotes.He was one clear-headed and biblical preacher/theologian!
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Men like John Dagg, P.H. Mell, the Manlys, Boyce, Broadus. and B. H. Carroll are sorely needed today. I believe that Al Mohler of Southern Seminary is one of the shining lights in the Convention today. Hope I am right. Recently heard a discussion between Mohler and Patterson on the Doctrines of Grace. Patterson took the Arminian view. The discussion was amicable but Mohler was outstanding.

    Don't know if you are familiar with the book by Thomas Nettles, By His Grace and for His Glory or not but it is a history of the Baptist slide toward Arminianism and also presents a good discussion of the Doctrines of Grace.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes,I have Nettles' book.I have quoted from it many times on the BB.There is a new, expanded edition that I might get in the future.Good stuff.
     
  4. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    "And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord..." Even here in the OT, Total Depravity is upheld.

    If you can't figure THAT one out...:praying:

    :tonofbricks:
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I do not see how anyone can come close to understanding the mysteries of the faith unless they are applying the word. If they do not apply the word then they are deluded.

    James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I want it especially if it is hardback. Gave away my hardback of the initial version; only have it in paperback.
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    You can get it through the Founders website.
     
  8. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Ge 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:


    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


    Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,

    Transgressing the law is sin, suppose God never gave the law to Adam/Eve, don't eat, according to scripture, Adam/Eve could have ate and not sinned.

    But with the consciousness of knowing the law and violating it, sin was imputed to them.

    Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


    If the soul doesn't sin until it's "knowledgeable" of the law,

    and no sin is imputed without law, would we be guilty of sin without knowing the law???

    The answer of course is NO, we would not.

    Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



    Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, (no law/knowledge) ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; (knowledge of law) therefore your sin remaineth.

    The bodies (flesh) of babies die because all flesh is condemned from birth to return to the dust, but sin is not imputed to their souls because they are blind (not conscious) of the knowledge of the law/sin.

    Not having reached the age of accountability (conscious of law/sin) the soul is not born in sin as many interpret it, only the "body" (flesh) stands condemned at birth.

    "Total Depravity", both Body/Soul at birth, therefore can not be true.



    Possessing the knowledge of Good/Evil, through the law before sin is imputed is carried on through into the plan of salvation,

    The law must be given before we can "KNOW" we're "EVIL" according to the law and before we can, or will repent.

    Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


    As the "KNOWLEDGE" of law, "Good/Evil" brought "CONDEMNATION" to mankind, (law, sin imputed)

    so does the "KNOWLEDGE" of Law, Good/Evil bring "REDEMPTION". (repentance of sin)


    God doesn't condemned a soul until it "Knowingly/Willfully" commits a "transgression of the law", and neither will God justified a soul until it "Knowingly/Willfully" Repents of that transgression.

    Adam/Eve knowing the law, brought man into sin, and man knowing the law, and Repenting of that sin, brings man out of sin,

    That is the plan of salvation in a "nutshell".




    This knowledge of the law, and the freedom to chose between Good/Evil, as Adam/Eve was given, makes man conscious and accountable of his sin, as well as his salvation, providing he repents.

    Total depravity, man's inability to chose good, denies man is accountable for his knowledge of what the law describes as being good/evil,

    and the law it's self as being totally irrelevant to our knowledge of sin/evil that we might repent and chose the good to be justified, rather than knowingly/willfully remaining condemned.

    Of course, Knowledge of the law, man's accountability for either Transgressing/Repentance, also refute the doctrine of the lost/saved being predestine by God,.
     
  9. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Ahh, yes. The old "my human brain says it's illogical and unfair, so I am not going to believe it" mantra.

    A baby is desperately wicked. That is total depravity. Yet "sin is not imputed, where there is no law"; therefore, although they are desperately wicked, the sin is not counted against them. It does not say "there is no sin"; it says it is not "imputed" (counted against them). Jesus said "NO MAN CAN COME UNLESS..." what do YOU think that means?

    The Bible says we are predestined. If you wish to trust YOUR measly little human brain over that of the very Words of the Creator of the Universe, go ahead.

    I tend to think God is smarter than me. I will trust Him when He says we are predestined, that ALL people are "desperately wicked", that all were subjected to the guilt of Adam's transgressions, etc.

    But you go on trusting your human wisdom. Let me know how that works out for you.
     
    #109 Havensdad, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I believe man is a undeserving sinnner. What I deny is that man is disabled from believing the gospel because of his sinful nature. I deny that man has to be saved first, inorder to believe. Grace comes through faith. If the man has no faith he has no grace. Faith is a gift that comes from hearing the gospel. It's being convinced by the Word and the Holy Spirit. God is God He does not have to regenerate the man first inorder to give him faith. Indeed faith works the regeneration itself. The Bible expresses this very well. Believe and you'll be saved. It is never be saved that you might believe.
    MB
     
  11. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    But the Bible says:

    #1 Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    A) Not a single soul can come to Jesus unless God the Father draws them to Him. "Draw" here is the same word used for Paul, when men grabbed hold of him and DRUG him...

    B) See the "and"? What is the implication above? What happens to those who are drawn by the Father? They "get a choice"? That is not what it says. It is a definite article: those who are drawn, who are the only ones who can come, WILL be raised up on the last day. No other option.

    #2 Actually as I have already pointed out, the verse in Acts 13 shows that it is those who have ordained, that believe, not vice versa. I already have shown where not a single Greek scholar agrees with your prior attack on this verse: even those who agree with your theology, interpret this verse this way. (they avoid this verse like the plague, or try to explain it away through some other means). This verse in Acts IS INDEED saying that those who were ordained, believed. Not vice versa.

    #3 We are saved by Grace, according to scripture. Grace is unmerited favor, meaning the person receiving it has no meritorious qualities whatsoever. This includes the exclusion of works (and this is pointed out in scripture) the exclusion of human choice (this, also is pointed out in scripture), and the exclusion of any other quality inherent within the person which distinguishes them from others. In fact, even logically, any such distinguishing characteristics are absurd. God made us. He gave us our characteristics.

    FAITH is only the MEANS by which God distributes his free grace. God convicts the heart, and "Gives" repentance unto life. God "assigns" to each person a measure of faith. Why? Because if He doesn't, ALL would stand condemned, for ALL have rejected Him and are fully, and totally unable to reform themselves, to atone for their own sin, or even to change their own wicked minds.

    Sola deo Gloria
     
    #111 Havensdad, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is only one of the many faults of Calvinism. There is no total depravity because if there were no one could be saved. Total is complete, reprobate. If all men are reprobates then not even Calvinist are saved.
    Of course your brain is larger eh! We are predestined after Salvation and not before. No one has been predestined to be saved. Only in Him can we be predestinated.
    God is smarter than you which is why we are always in Him when we are predestined.
    Typical of Calvinist when they can't prove there doctrine they insult you. I'm sure Me4Him is trusting in God. You should try it yourself because human wisdom is all Calvinism really is because, it certainly isn't in scripture.
    MB
     
  13. Spinach

    Spinach New Member

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    Arrogant and insulting all wrapped up in one post, Havensdad.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You are jumping to HUGE conclusions. Those who are raised up are the ones who come, not the ones who are drawn. Of course man cannot come unless drawn, but to use this text as a proof text that not all are drawn is eisegesis.
     
  15. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    No arrogance intended. If the Bible says God "predestined" us (and it does) why do people feel the need to explain that away, until it means the OPPOSITE of what it said?

    The Bible says God "predestined" us. Why can't we just say "O.k. God, I don't understand that, but I will trust ya", instead of saying "No, MY willpower HAS to be involved in this somewhere! I AM the master of my little universe."

    The fact is, without these types of fallen human feelings, there would be no reason to explain this huge amount of scripture away. We would just say "Oh, God said it. I will believe it."
     
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Context is everything when defining a word. The same word also means to entice. I do not deny that God must draws us but the scriptures plainly states that all men are drawn.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    Yes it does say that but it doesn't say to what they will be raised up to does it?
    Not so in the original Language. I know you were hoping to base your entire belief on that one verse but it won't hold water. I don't avoid it but tell you the truth of that verse. In the Greek it reads "And the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord and believed as many as were appointed to eternal life." From Greens interlinear. Oh I know now your going to tell me all about the grammar involved but 2000 years ago there were no rules of grammar.
    Grace is still through faith and no matter whether you believe it or not doesn't affect it's truth. You simply cannot have Grace with out having faith first.
    .
    Good for you. You got it right that time when you just said."FAITH is only the MEANS by which God distributes his free grace." No faith No grace.
    MB
     
    #116 MB, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    I am not jumping to any conclusions. Jesus said no one could come unless the father draws Him. He then says those that all who are drawn, are raised: not vice versa. It is not "jumping to conclusions" to say "I believe you Jesus".

    The fact is, this is not eisegesis. People were grumbling against Jesus, and refusing o come. Jesus is saying the reason is they aren't drawn by the father.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It does NOT say all that are drawn are raised...that IS eisegesis! The text in context is speaking of those who come to Christ...THEY are the ones raised on the last day.

    37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." 41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven," 42 and they said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Actaully, I would challenge you to read the text again and find interesting little word "all" in there - anywhere.

    If it is not there then you do not have exegesis but instead quite factually eisegesis.

    Jesus is clarifying that only those drawn "can" come but that does not negate the fact God's calling extends toward those who will reject as well.

    Haven't you read in the scripture that He has called but they have refused
    Which is the same passage that Paul makes reference to it in Romans 10:21
    Not to mention many others passages with state much the same (He called they refused; I would.. but you would not..) as well as the common passage cited about many are called but few are chosen.

    and of course here:
    Appearently those who hear God can harden/reject His calling just as the Jews did in the rebellion (Going agianst the way God told them)
     
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Heb 3:15 is a great summation from Paul about the same thing:
     
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