I Cor 13:10

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Ps104_33, Jul 5, 2002.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Can someone also point me to a commentary prior to the modern day toungues movement which began, probably in the early 1900's, which interprets this verse ("that which is perfect is come") as pertaining to the word of God? No opinions please, just a commentary from the 1800's or earlier as I am debating someone on this issue.
    I believe that the popular interpretation of this verse is a reaction to toungues.
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Chris Temple gave you the interpretation you needed... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ July 05, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  3. Chris Temple

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    John Gill:
    Matthew Henry
     
  4. Ps104_33

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    I appreciate Henry and Gill's commentary but what I am looking for is a commentary of the same time period exegeting the passage in the manner which is common today, that is that this passage(1cor13:10) pertains to the Bible.
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    Here is the origin of the Pentecostal/Holiness movement and maybe this will be of a help to you. I felt Chris Temple answered your question but you feel different... What exactly are you looking for so we can narrow it down precisely... Also when you debate someone make sure you know their position and not just yours!... Brother Glen :confused:

    http://www.oru.edu/university/library/holyspirit/pentorg1.html

    [ July 06, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  6. Ps104_33

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    All of your expositions on the passage are right on the money as far as I am concerned. I agree with you. I dont agree with my Pastors exegesis of the passage which is that it pertains to the Word of God. I want to know if there are any commentaries prior to 1900 that teach this passage "that which is perfect ic come....") to mean the completed Bible. If there are none, so be it.
     
  7. Scott_Bushey

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    It is clear from the Greek, that the word *perfect* is of the neuter gender. So it seems, that "the perfect", must be a place or thing, i.e. Heaven or the word of God.

    ~Scott

    [ July 07, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  8. Naomi

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    I do not know of one Commentator that believes it is to mean The Completed Bible I think all of them believed it to mean The coming of Jesus!

    Naomi [​IMG]
     
  9. DHK

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  10. Pastork

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    Ps 104_33,

    For what its worth, I couldn't see how the quotes from Henry or Gill answered your question either, for I didn't see how either of them could be taken as arguing that tongues must have ceased when the New Testament canon was completed. And if they had held to such a view, they would have been wrong anyway.

    Pastork
     
  11. Pastor_Bob

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    If you stop to think about it, a commentary is nothing more than another man's opinion. It has been said that the best commentary of the Bible is the Bible itself.

    The Word of God is often given the attribute of perfection.
    Ps 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

    The word "perfect" is the Greek word "teleios", it means "complete, completeness:--of full age, perfect."

    Jesus was perfect or complete already; when the Lord comes again it will be a new beginning not a completeness. All of eternity awaits us. The Word of God is perfect. They didn't have the "complete" Word of God during apostolic times. They needed the sign gifts then. When the completed, perfect Word of God came along, the need for the imperfect was done away.
     
  12. GrannyGumbo

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    The Word of God is often given the attribute of perfection.
    Ps 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."[Pastor Bob 63]

    PastorBob; "I've asked this before, but don't think I've ever gotten an answer. I take notes during preaching, etc, & I have some from a very long time ago where I wrote down James 1:25 is saying the "perfect law of liberty" is "the Bible"? Therefore, to me, "that which is perfect" =God's Word; as the Lord Jesus Christ, is not a "that which". *Should I discard these notes?
     
  13. Pastork

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    Pastor Bob,

    I have to disagree with your understanding of 1Cor.13:10. Although you correctly give a basic definition of teleios, I differ with your understanding as to what Paul is using it to describe in the context of 1Cor.13. In the context Paul is contrasting "that which is perfect" (vs.10) with knowing "in part" and prophesying "in part" (ek merous)(vs.9) He then further discusses the aforementioned issue of "in part" knowing versus "perfect" knowing in verse 12, when he says "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part [ek merous], but then I shall know just as I also am known". When Paul says "then" (tote) in verse 12, he can only be referring back to the "when" (otan) of verse 10. Thus, "when that which is perfect has come" is the same time at which ("then") we shall see "face to face", which must refer to the return of Christ. So Paul is saying that this imperfect ("in part") way of knowing will cease when Christ returns and we shall see Him "face to face". It is "then" that Paul stresses that we shall "know" just as we are "known" (recalling the contrast between "in part" vs. "perfect" knowing of verse 10). Paul is therefore clearly saying that the aforementioned gifts (vs.8) will cease when Christ returns.

    Pastork

    [ July 17, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]
     
  14. Pastor_Bob

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    Hello Granny.

    First let me say no, do not discard your notes. They will be of use to you at some point in the future if they haven't benefited you already. I tend to believe that they have. Also, your children and grandchildren will be blessed beyond measure to have sermon notes written in your own handwriting after you've gone to be with the Lord.

    In this passage you ask about, James is referring specifically to the law of God. It is God's standard of conduct for His people. It would certainly be proper to apply it to the Bible you and I hold in our hands.

    It is called the "perfect law of liberty" because hearing it and obeying it will free us from the awful yoke of sin. We are no longer servants to sin Paul says in Romans six.

    Keep your notes Granny! Keep taking them every service. You'll be glad you did.
     
  15. Pastor_Bob

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    I respect your opinion Pastor K. My only problem is, if you take the position that "that which is perfect" is the complete Word of God, then you are also stating that the sign gifts such as tongues have no place our day and age. That have been done away with. Of course, I take that position.

    If you take the other position, how do you deal with the issue of the sign gifts? Does God intend for them to be used until Christ returns?

    Respectfully,
    Pastor Bob
     
  16. Pastork

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    Pastor Bob,

    Paul says that the gifts he is discussing will be here until Christ returns. I believe I have demonstrated this in my analysis of the text. The issue is not "Which position do I decide to take?" but rather "What is Paul actually saying?" So show me where my exegesis of the text is wrong if you disagree with it.

    Also, in answer to your question about my position and the "sign gifts", I think you are assuming that gifts such as tongues exist only as "signs". This is an unwarranted assumption. Although it is true that Paul says in 1Cor.14:22 that "tongues are for a sign", he had earlier mentioned tongues as a gift for the "profit" of the Body (12:6f). And in chapter 14 he says that tongues edify onesself and the Body of Christ (vs.4-5). In other words, tongues are given by the Holy Spirit for the edification of the Church as well as for a sign. Having said this, I see no reason why tongues cannot still serve as both a means of building up the Body and as a sign to unbelievers until Christ returns. It is only when one makes the unwarranted assumption that tongues are ONLY for a sign, and then further makes the unwarranted assumption that such signs are ONLY for the establishing of the written Word, that one feels any need to buy into your position in the first place.

    Pastork

    [ July 20, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    The words of God from the Word Of God have never ceased because that which is perfect has come!... A message that the natural man cannot understand because to him that does not believe to him it is an unknown tongue! Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  18. Kiffin

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    If you take the position that "that which is perfect" is the complete Word of God you run into historical problems since the Church Fathers testified of the sign gifts still occuring. Another problem for the Cessationist camp is that the Word of God was not widely available at the close of the First Century and there was no formal New Testament Canon at the time. From the second century on to the Fourth, the Churches sought to formalize them into a Canon but this was a long process of removing books not of Divine origin.

    In A.D. 367, Athanasius, sent out a letter in which he listed the twenty-seven books that make up the present New Testament as the only books that were to be regarded as New Testament Scripture. This seems to be the first formal recognition of these 27 books as a whole as the divinely inspired New Testament Scriptures in that there had been controversies over other books being added.

    The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) would help confirm that these books were the only New Testament books. Many Cessationists imply that the 27 book canon fell out of the sky and were set in the mind of Christians in AD 100 but it was a long and difficult process for the early Churches to make sure which books are of Divine origin and which are not. So if you hold to Cessationism it seems you would have to place AD 393 or 397 as the ceasing of gifts.
     
  19. Pastor_Bob

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    I disagree. This does not have to refer to the return of Christ. Read verse 12 carefully: 1Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

    The word "glass" is the Greek word esoptron which is literally, "a mirror." Many times in the Word of God this illustration is used and it always refers to us looking at ourselves. Just like we do everyday when we look into a mirror.

    2Cor. 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

    This verse is referring to the Christian looking at the Law of God and seeing our own imperfections and being changed into the image of Christ.

    Jas 1:23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

    Again, this is the Christian looking at his/herself in the mirror of God's Word. It will reveal to us what we really are and what our spiritual condition really is.

    In 1 Cor. 10:12, The "face to face" is the complete Word of God that is perfect. It is a complete revelation of God's Scripture. At the time of Paul's writing they had no complete revelation. They saw "through a glass darkly."

    "When that which is perfect is come" Paul employs the neuter because he does not contemplate an individual. Therefore, that which is perfect cannot refer to the coming of Christ Himself. Then that which is in part will be done away. Once the "perfect" has been achieved, there will be no need for the imperfect. It will not be needed or accepted and it should not be desired.

    It is interesting to note that tongues are never mentioned again in the New Testament after this warning.

    Paul illustrates his point by likening it to the maturing process of a person from infancy to manhood. A child speaks, reasons, and absorbs knowledge at the level of his maturity. Paul's use of spake..understood...thought seem to correspond with "tongues," "prophecy," and "knowledge." If this is the case, it is reasonable to expect change to occur.

    A child's speech is undeveloped, his understanding limited, and his knowledge incomplete. But when the child becomes a man, when he looks into the perfect Word of God, his speech becomes subject to his mind, his understanding is tempered, and his knowledge is complete.

    Wec now have, in the Word of God, all that He intended for us to have. We have His complete revelation. There is no longer a need for tongues, or for the other sign gifts.

    1Co 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

    This is not saying that tongues edify the church. In fact, it is saying just the opposite. He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself , not the whole church. The church is only edified when an interpreter gives the understandable meaning of the tongues to the church. Of course I believe this is literal languages and not estatic gibberish that no one understands.

    1Co 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

    Tongues are without a doubt for a sign. Everytime tongues were used in the New Testament, unbelieving Jews were present and had to have this "sign" to admit that God was indeed working. The only exception to this was at Corinth and Paul rebuked them for their improper use of tongues.
     
  20. Graceforever

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    I disagree. This does not have to refer to the return of Christ. Read verse 12 carefully: 1Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

    The word "glass" is the Greek word esoptron which is literally, "a mirror." Many times in the Word of God this illustration is used and it always refers to us looking at ourselves. Just like we do everyday when we look into a mirror.

    2Cor. 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

    This verse is referring to the Christian looking at the Law of God and seeing our own imperfections and being changed into the image of Christ.

    Jas 1:23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

    Again, this is the Christian looking at his/herself in the mirror of God's Word. It will reveal to us what we really are and what our spiritual condition really is.

    In 1 Cor. 10:12, The "face to face" is the complete Word of God that is perfect. It is a complete revelation of God's Scripture. At the time of Paul's writing they had no complete revelation. They saw "through a glass darkly."

    "When that which is perfect is come" Paul employs the neuter because he does not contemplate an individual. Therefore, that which is perfect cannot refer to the coming of Christ Himself. Then that which is in part will be done away. Once the "perfect" has been achieved, there will be no need for the imperfect. It will not be needed or accepted and it should not be desired.

    It is interesting to note that tongues are never mentioned again in the New Testament after this warning.

    Paul illustrates his point by likening it to the maturing process of a person from infancy to manhood. A child speaks, reasons, and absorbs knowledge at the level of his maturity. Paul's use of spake..understood...thought seem to correspond with "tongues," "prophecy," and "knowledge." If this is the case, it is reasonable to expect change to occur.

    A child's speech is undeveloped, his understanding limited, and his knowledge incomplete. But when the child becomes a man, when he looks into the perfect Word of God, his speech becomes subject to his mind, his understanding is tempered, and his knowledge is complete.

    Wec now have, in the Word of God, all that He intended for us to have. We have His complete revelation. There is no longer a need for tongues, or for the other sign gifts.

    1Co 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

    This is not saying that tongues edify the church. In fact, it is saying just the opposite. He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself , not the whole church. The church is only edified when an interpreter gives the understandable meaning of the tongues to the church. Of course I believe this is literal languages and not estatic gibberish that no one understands.

    1Co 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

    Tongues are without a doubt for a sign. Everytime tongues were used in the New Testament, unbelieving Jews were present and had to have this "sign" to admit that God was indeed working. The only exception to this was at Corinth and Paul rebuked them for their improper use of tongues.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Pastor Bob 63!

    If I might add, to the poster that started this thread, you couldn’t go back pre 1800 and find an interpretation any better than the one that Bob 63 presented...

    As we all know, the word changeth not… The spirit (that shows us all things) can interpret for us the scripture, in much the same manner that it did for our forefathers… Here’s the difference, those saints of old kept themselves unspotted from the world… Therefore, the spirit was free to interpret the scripture to them in a more perfect understanding…. If we seek his face today, with clean hands and a pure mind, he would open up our understanding….

    We must remember that in the last days, because iniquity abounds, the love of many will wax cold…. If those days weren’t shortened, it would deceive the very elect, if possible….

    Let everyone that nameth the name of the Lord, depart from iniquity…… Amen!
     

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