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I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Link, May 2, 2006.

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  1. mcneely

    mcneely New Member

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    In Acts 2, it tells us that there were people from other parts of the known world living in Jerusalem at the time of Pentecost who gathered around the group of believers. Now why do you think Paul made it a point to tell us that, hmm?....

    Would it be because toungues in the New Testament sense are actual spoken languages?

    I was raised in the Pentecostal movement until I was about 15. We NEVER missed a service. And in every service there was of course, speaking in "tounges", people getting up and dancing around, even an old lady who always flapped her arms and squawled like a big rooster. I was taught that these were gifts of the spirit, that the "tounges" were a heavenly language, and that this was initial evidence of one's salvation.

    I noticed that the "tounges" were always exactly the same. Every Sunday morning, night, and Wednesday. It was almost like a ritual. And it was always the same three, or four people who participated. And as I studied scripture, I became less and less convinced that these "tounges" in the New Testament were a gift given to the truly saved, or if they were used to get peoples' attention and teach all people of all languages and cultures the Gospel.

    But that's just me...


    ---Justin
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    mcneely,

    I am sorry that you had to endure the vain actions of a few to the point where you, apparently, came to the conclusion that it was all false...

    I, too, was raised Pentecostal.

    Assemblies of God, in fact.

    And, there were some 'bizarre' occurances...

    But, there were also some pretty blessed moments, too...

    Humans have that habit...

    Of making big mistakes and of getting caught up in the moment...

    And, contrary to (it seems everyone's) opinion, when you are Walking in the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit you are not an automoton...

    If that were so John wouldn't have told us to test the spirits, nor would Paul have told the Prophets to judge Prophecy...

    My own personal conviction is, is that if we are to 'judge' Prophecy how much more all of the rest of the Gifts?

    This is something that Pentecostals and charismatics as a group don't seem willing to do, feeling that to do so would be to Greive the Holy Spirit and cause the manifestations to cease in a service...

    I say they are wrong...

    I believe that if would would walk in *responsible* obedience and test the spirits and if we would judge the manifestations as to whether they are really the Holy Spirit...

    Then, the Holy Spirit would be able to trust us with NT grade works again...

    But, as it is...

    Far too many Pentecostal Services start in the Spirit and end in the flesh trying to maintain a Spiritual temperature that their obedience doesn't support...

    (obedience covers a *lot* of ground here. [​IMG] )

    Of course, sadly, I've been to a few that didn't even *start* in the Holy Spirit...

    But, in my case having experienced the genuine, I can not fail but to testify that the Manifestations continue...

    As I said in another place...

    If we'd stop chasing the Manifestations and let the Spirit catch up to us...

    We'd have Signs following instead of frenetically following Signs...

    SMM
     
  3. mcneely

    mcneely New Member

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    SMM,

    My family and I left the Pentecostal movement when I was fifteen. But more recently I heard someone talking about the "gifts" and the "signs". It brought back warm memories of my old home church, and I began attending services at SEVERAL local Pentecostal and Charasmatic assemblies......

    I found it was the same as before. Elders "prophesying in tounges" and coming close to jumping out windows. The same "heavenly language" phrases being repeated over and over again (strangely, the same ones I heard most of my young life). I often watched several Charasmatic evangelists on television like Rod Parsley. But it was the same. Just with a bigger audience, and game show music. :rolleyes:

    I'm sure you have your convictions on this subject, SMM, but so do I. Often times these so-called "prophesies" given to "spirit-filled" members of the Church were either totally vague and generalized, or well-known bible ones. I just couldn't invest my spiritual life in that again.


    ---Justin
     
  4. Link

    Link New Member

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    I suppose you can believe that if you wish, but the Bible teaches no such thing. When Paul quotes Isaiah about tongues as a sign, he uses it as a basis for arguing that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not for Jews in particular.

    Jesus is still the Messiah. There is no reason for the signs to cease.

    First, tongues is not just a sign. It serves a purpose in the church--with interpretation, building up the body. So it is not ONLY a sign. It serves as a sign to unbelievers, but it also has functions to serve with believers. I Corinthians 12 does not talk about these gifts as 'signs' but rather as gifts to build up the body. So no matter where you go with eschatology and Israel, the church still needs to be edified, and therefore still needs the gifts.

    Biblically, we know that God is not done with Israel. We see this in Romans 11.

    This is an unbiblical statement.

    The Bible teaches us that we need love. It teaches us that we need to obey Christ. It teaches us that we need grace. It teaches us that the church needs spiritual gifts. The Bible tells us about these things. We need the things the Bible tells us about. The Bible does not replace the things it tells us to have-- like spiritual gifts.

    The Bible does not teach this. The Bible gives us instructions on tongues because we need them. The Bible does not replace its own teachings. That is nonsensical.
     
  5. Link

    Link New Member

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    McNeely

    Growing up Pentecostal, i was taught that tongues were real languages.

    I also heard tongues that sound to me like real languages. I have heard many languages, studied 8 or 9, and have a degree in linguistics.

    i've also heard tongues that sounded like a few repeated syllables. i would not say all tongues are real.

    I've also heard prophecies that seemed vague, or were a number of KJV verses strung together.

    on the other hand, i've also heard prophecies that gave extremely specific details about things the prophet could not naturally know about. I have even heard a prophecy (or interpretation of tongues, don't recall) that repeated back to me the words I had just thought. We were singing, "Give glory, and power, and honor unto Him, Jesus, the name above all names." Not knowing this was from a verse from Revelation when I was a teen, I asked myself "How do you give power to Jesus." (or perhaps I thought God.)

    the prophecy, or interpretation was given, and said, you ask yourself, how do you give power to God (or Jesus, don't recall which) and went on to comment on that topic. That was one occasion that got my attention.

    For me, i choose to obey the scripture. Covet to prophecy.
     
  6. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Justin, I understand all too well...

    And, I do not blame you at all...

    Many of my Pentecostal Peers 'bug' me, too...

    And, the smile all the time ones especially... [​IMG]

    SMM
     
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Signs are for the Jews only as per Corinthians. So Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. Signs are for unbelieving Jews not unbelievers in general. The message of the kingdom is only presented to spiritually alive people.

    A spiritually dead person (Gentile unbeliever) couldn't even begin to understand the message of the kingdom, so if they can't even understand the message why would they need a sign to point them to something they can't even comprehend anyway. That's just silly.

    Jesus is the Messiah, but He is currently not acting in that position. He is acting as High Priest on behalf of the one new man in Christ. The nation of Israel has been set aside for a dispensation, seven years short of their dispensation being fulfilled. God will return His attention to the nation of Israel after the rapture.

    But until then signs are not present via the Holy Spirit. We must remember that signs can be manifested by the enemy however! And how convenient for the enemy to deceive folks. If I remember correctly that his job-deception/lying.

    The Bible disagrees with that statement. I'll stick with how the Bible defines the manifestation of tongues.

    You make this statement and then don't give any evidence other than your opinion. If the Bible is insufficient please show me Scripture that says we need to rely on anything outside of the Scripture.

    Everything that God wanted us to know about Him and His plans is contained in the Bible. The Holy Spirit will teach us, but He will not teach us anything that contradicts Scripture.

    Link the Bible clearly teaches that tongues are not for the church, but if you choose not to believe that then that is on you.
     
  8. Link

    Link New Member

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    Signs are not only for the Jews as per the rest of scripture. Take a look at the book of Acts. In Acts 8, the Samaritans listened to Philip when they saw the signs and wonders that he did. Acts 15:12 tells of how Paul and Barnabas recounted the signs and wonders they did among the Gentiles. Look up the Greek word there for 'miracles' if you are using an old translation.

    I Corinthians 1 tells us that the Jews desired a sign and Greeks sought for wisdom. These were things these groups of people wanted. If Greeks sought wisdom, it does not follow logically, that God had no place for signs among Greeks.

    And the fact that when the Gospel was preached among the Gentiles, that tongues were present. So if you argue that tongues were only for Jewish unbelievers, why would they be seen among Gentiles when Gentiles first started to be converted.

    You are drawing a conclusion from a verse that does not support your conclusion. Your conclusion contradicts other scripture.


    First of all, if you think the unbelieving Jews were spiritually alive, go back and re-read the book of Romans. Secondly, Paul makes the point he wants to make in I Corinthians 14 when he quotes from Isaiah. If you conclude from this that tongues were only for Jews, your conclusion contradicts other scripture and is not supported by I Corinthians 14 either.

    Jesus did signs for spiritually blinded Jews, which contradicts your argument here.

    Also, your argument here contradicts what happened in Acts 10 when the Geniles heard the message.


    What a bizaar position to hold to. The Bible says that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Do you have any scripture that says that Jesus is not acting as the Anointed One?

    That does not mean that He is not acting as the Messiah as well. Notice the High Priest is anointed as well.

    Supposing I agree with your eschatological interpretation about the 7 years, I don't see where scripture says that Israel has been 'set aside.'

    But all this is beside the point. No matter what your eschatology, none of this argues that tongues has ceased. The Bible does not say Israel being set aside makes tongues cease, or that Israel is being set aside.

    Show me one verse that says that God's signs and wonders would be done away with--temporarily-- to come back after the rapture. I can't even find this pre-tribulational rapture stuff in scripture. Paul has Jesus coming back and the resurrection all occuring together.

    You are filling in your eschatological theories with guesswork, either yours, or someone elses. There is no scripture to back up the idea that there will be this spiritual gift gap in history on your Bible prophecy chart.

    The enemy could also sucker someone into believing that God's gifts aren't given any more by tricking them with some unbiblically-supported Bible prophecy theories, tricking them into rejecting true works of God.

    Jesus said you would know false prophets by their fruits. He did not say you would know them by what time period they prophecy in.

    I wrote,
    First, tongues is not just a sign.

    Show me scripture that says that the only role of tongues is as a sign. You can't because that idea CONTRADICTS scripture. I Corinthians 12 clearly shows that tongues is among the gifts that prophet the body of Christ. I Corinthians 14 shows us that tongues with interpretation edifies the CHURCH. So tongues has a role in the church, a role of edification. It is not ONLY a sign. It's function as a sign is to unbelievers. But it has a role, other than a sign, in the church, as a gift for edifying. In the church, it must be used with the gift of interpretation.


    I said,
    This is an unbiblical statement.

    No one said the Bible is 'insuficient.' I just demonstrated that it is illogical to say we don't need the things the Bible tells us we needs because the Bible is sufficient. This line of reasoning is sophistry.

    Also, II Timothy does not tell us that the Bible is all we need to be fully equipped. It tells us that the scriptures are given SO THAT the man of God might be thoroughly equipped.

    A soldier is given a gun SO THAT he might be thoroughly equipped. That does not mean the gun is the only equipment he needs. He also needs bullets for the gun, a helmet, etc.

    Those who use that verse to say that the Bible is literally all a Christian needs make an illogical argument, since the verse isn't saying that. They don't REALLY believe that either.

    Who really believes that a Christian does not need faith? Who believes a Christian does not need love? The scriptures are given _so that_ the man of God might be thoroughly equipped. But that does not mean we don't need to have what the Bible says we need to have because we have the Bible.

    I Corinthians 12 says that Spirit gives spiritual gifts to edify the body of Christ. That is Biblical teaching. I Peter 4 says that we are to use the gifts to minister to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Notice the connection between gifts and grace. Grace--charis. Gift- charisma. The spiritual gifts are manifestations of God's grace. By using them well, we are good stewards of God's grace.

    In this age of grace, it makes no sense to argue that God has removed His grace and manifestations of grace from the church.

    The Bible teaches no such thing. It teaches the opposite. Open your Bible and read I Corinthians 12. Tongues are clearly for the body of Christ. I Corinthians 14 shows us this as well. Tongues are not A SIGN FOR believers, but they are for believers in that they are a gift for the church. If you do not believe that the body of Christ, spoken of in I Corinthians 14, is the church, I can look up other scripture to demonstrate this as well.
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    So...

    None of the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit were _NOT_ for the edification of the Church?

    I continue to maintain the The Gift is the Holy Spirit and the Nine Charismas are Manifestations of His (Manifest) Presense in a given Body of Believers...

    If Tongues have ceased then all Nine Manifestations must cease as well for it is The Holy Spirit you are saying has ceased Manifesting Himself Publicly...

    This is not to say that such a position would deny the Attendant Presence of the Holy Spirit as the Paraclett in Salvation...

    But, if we chain the Spirit concerning Tongues then, of needs be, we chain Him in all Public Manifestations...

    I repeat The Gift is the Holy Spirit...

    The Charismas are Manifestation and Attrinutes of His Presence...

    IMHO, The Public Manifestation of the Holy Spirits Presence is a Package Deal.

    And, though you would argue away the Scriptures there are at least threes modes where tongues were used in the NT church...

    Including edification...

    Note, Please, I am _not_ saying you have to speak ing tongues to have the Holy Spirit on you or accompany you... That would be stupid as you can not drawn to the Father much less be Spiritually Reborn without the Holy Spirit...

    I am saying the, for people who are open to them, all Nine Manifestations continue through today and will continue until (at least) Jesus Returns.

    SMM
     
  10. music4Him

    music4Him New Member

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    Amen Link and SMM! [​IMG]
     
  11. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    I Corinthians 1:22 says Jews require a sign. That can not be any more clear. If Gentiles require a sign, please so me a Scripture that is equally as clear saying Gentiles require a sign. I don’t think you are going to be able to find it. If you can find such a Scripture I will gladly eat crow. I’ve had to do it before.
    So it is Jews only that require a sign. So with clear teaching as this if there is something in the Bible that seems to go against this teaching it must mean we are not understanding it properly because the Bible is not going to contradict itself. Jews require a sign no one else.
    The last time I checked the Samaritans were half Jew and half Gentile, so since they are Jews they require a sign as well.
    Yes signs and wonders were done among the Gentiles, and they were eventually done by the Gentiles. But it wasn’t for the benefit of the Gentiles. It was to provoke the nation of Israel to jealousy. Again we have to go back to clear teaching. Jews require a sign, not Gentiles.

    So where is Scripture that says signs give wisdom? Signs do not give wisdom.

    No it unfortunately doesn’t fit into your conclusion and you are trying to dance around it. It can’t be any more plain. Jews require a sign. No one else. Just the Jews.


    I don’t have to read the book of Romans all I have to do is read the Gospel accounts. I will not take the time to explain this here, but maybe we could start another thread on this topic.
    Paul quotes Isaiah which is talking about the nation of Israel. So Israel is the context of I Corinthians chapter 14 in the passage that you are speaking about and therefore proves exactly what I am saying.

    Ah now we are getting somewhere. Jesus did signs for spiritually “blinded” Jews. Spiritually blinded and spiritually dead are two different things. The Jews were indeed blind, but they weren’t dead.

    No it doesn’t. This was done for the benefit of the circumcised. Acts 10:45
    Yeah there are several that tell us that Satan is the god of this age or the god of this world. Satan and his demons are currently ruling this planet. But one day that rule will come to an end. Again this may be another thread if you want more explanation.
    I see no place in Scripture that says when Christ is ruling that there is going to be absolute chaos. Just look at the 10 p.m. news or read a newspaper and it is very easy to see that Christ is not currently ruling this earth. But there are other evidences as well that could be explained in another thread.
    Again if you want further explanation start another thread.

    Yes it does, because both things have to be in place for signs to be manifested. The entire nation of Israel and the offer of the kingdom. The offer of the kingdom has been taken away from Israel as per the Gospel accounts. God is dealing with the church right now and not the nation of Israel.
    I just showed you through this post. If you choose not to see it then again that is on you.

    Again if you choose not to see the clear teaching of Scripture that is on you.
    That is certainly possible, but that’s not what the Bible teaches.
    You already showed it to yourself. I Corinthians 14 is pretty clear.
    That’s what your post implied.
    And everything that we need gets its root from the Scripture. Faith, hope, love, spiritual gifts…whatever you want to throw into that equation all of it is given to us in the Bible. How one needs to use these things, etc. Granted love is not in the pages of the Bible, but to find out how to love is in the Bible. Therefore the Bible is the only instruction book we need. And our teacher is the Holy Spirit. And He will not teach anything that is given outside of Scripture. It will all line up. It has to.
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    I Corinthians 14 is not the only place Tongues is spoken about...


    We don't get Love from the Scipture we get Love from God because God is Love...

    True we learn about it in scripture...

    But, the Fruit of the Spirit is Love...

    Without the Spirit we can not express God's Kind of Love...

    Granted, you don't have to be Pentecostally Baptized to have the Fruit of the Spirit...

    And, unfortunately the Pentecostals haven't exactly made a point of manifesting the Fruit of the Spirit...

    But, that doesn't mean that The Holy Spirit won't still Publically manifest His Presence if the venue is open to it...

    As for there being absolute chaos you haven't been to every form of Pentecostal Service...

    I've seen some Holy Ghost services that were so "In Order" that it was as if someone had printed a bulletin for it...

    And, if you step on to the Trading Floor at the New Yor Stock Exchange it will appear to be absolute chaos, to you...

    But, if you are a trader you would recognise the precise ballet that is going on...

    Some people conduct Finacial transactions in a staid bank...

    Some on the Trading Floors of Exchanges...

    Most do Legitimate Financial Transactions...

    Some people conduct Spiritual Business in a staid environment...

    Some in a more exhuberant environment...

    But, again, most transactions are legitimate...

    Not all, granted, but... Most...

    And, there are embezzlements in the staid banks, too. [​IMG]

    SMM
     
  13. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    The signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men, have always been with Israel and the Kingdom in view. This is consistent throughout Scriptures.

    We are told to walk by faith, not by sight.

    You may have all the tongues you want; I will simply live by faith.
     
  14. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    So, if you walk by Faith...

    You never gain the Substance?

    You never have proof of your "Earnest"?

    Honestly, I kind of like seeing Jesus' "Engagement Ring" displayed in the Church...

    2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Now, I don't know about you...

    But, I don't think there is a woman on this forum who wouldn't show of a ten carat engagement ring...

    You have the option of keeping the Brilliance of that Earnest in hiding... That's your perogative...

    But, to me, the Manifestations are a constant reminder of what's waiting for us in Heaven...

    Like Abraham sent His eldest Servant who gave Rebekah gifts before the Marriage...

    So, God the Father sends the Holy Spirit to gather a Bride for His Son Jesus and gives Gifts to them...

    These Gifts are a promise of the impending wedding...

    At least that's the way I see Genesis 24... :D
     
  15. Link

    Link New Member

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    J. Jump wrote,
    The verse says that Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom.

    Based on this verse, does it make sense to conclude that no Jew in the world has ever sought after wisdom? No, of course not. That is just poor reasoning. Solomon clearly sought after wisdom. Decades later, Trypho, a Jew, would talk to Justin because he was a philosopher, and Justin would write a treatise about it. Some Jews sought wisdom. The verse does not say they didn't.

    But a general characteristic of Greek people in their culture is that they sought after wisdom, and this is what happened when they heard the gospel. In Athens, the philosophers came to listen as if it were a philosophical idea.

    What did Jews do? They asked for signs. They asked Jesus for a sign. No doubt they wanted Him to predict some future event, so that, if it did not come to pass, they could write Him off as a false prophet, according to the passage which speaks about prophets and the Prophet in the Old Testament.


    The passage here is about what THE JEWS REQUIRE, NOT ABOUT GOD'S PURPOSES FOR SIGNS. Why do you care what the Jews require. The issue here is God's purposes for signs, not man's purposes. The Jews wanted Paul to give them a sign. What _they_ wanted has little to do with the use of signs among Gentiles.

    Just look in the Bible for examples of signs and Paul did among Gentiles. For example, on the first misionary journey, among the pagan Lyaconians, Paul declared a crippled man healed. The pagans tried to sacrifice to him and Barnabas and he had to persuade them otherwise. Clearly this was a pagan audience, and yet God did signs among them.

    As far as Samaritans go, Jesus said that they worshipped (bowed down toward) they know not what, and that salvation was of the Jews. So the half-Jew, half-Gentile argument is rather weak.


    I wrote,

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jesus did signs for spiritually blinded Jews, which contradicts your argument here.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You responded
    You are missing the point. You did not quote the part of your quote I was responding to when I mentioned 'spiritually blinded.' Here it is below.

    You wrote,
    Jesus did miracles for the spiritually blind Jews. He spoke in parables to people who could not understand. So your argument that God would not do signs for the spiritually dead because they would not understand does not wash.


    Also, if you think the unbelieving Jews were spiritually alive, read the beginning of Romans 10.

    There are two ways to be alive.

    1. He that doeth these things-- the law--shall live by them.
    2. The other way is 'the just shall live by faith.'

    No one is justified by the works of the law, for all have sinned. So that leaves one way to live.

    The unbelieving Jews did not 'live' because, as Romans 10 explains, he (Israel) 'sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law....'

    So unbelieving Israel is spiritually dead, not spiritually alive, and yet they still saw the signs. So your argument about no signs for the spiritually dead is not valid. Read Romans 10.

    This is the problem. You are not taking all of scripture into account. You are making conclusions not supported by the verses you quote, that contradict other scripture. For example, your argument that GOD does not do signs among Gentiles because the Jews demanded a sign. The conclusion does not follow.


    I wrote,
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Also, your argument here contradicts what happened in Acts 10 when the Gentiles heard the message.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You responded
    Since the circumcised, here, are a part of the church, then you must conclude that tongues, here, were 'for the church.'


    I wrote,
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What a bizaar position to hold to. The Bible says that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Do you have any scripture that says that Jesus is not acting as the Anointed One?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The issue is that you said that Jesus was not functioning as the Messiah. Christ is at God's right hand until all enemies are put under His feet. So the war is not over yet. Also, David was anointed BEFORE he became king. So if you are arguing that Christ has not defeated all His enemies and fully taken up His rule, then it still does not make sense to say that He is not functioning as the Messiah. Especially since kings can be anointed BEFORE they take over.

    Btw, Ireneaus, argued that the passage you quote there is about God and that 'of this world' refers to the people of this world that believe not. He was combatting heretics who used this verse to argue for lesser gods.


    Scripture does say He must reign until all enemies have been put under His feet.

    Don't you go beyond the scripture here? Where does Paul or any other NT author say such a thing? The kingdom of God was taken from the Jewish leaders. But that does not man that God is not dealing with the nation of Israel. i heard recently that the ethnic group receiving the Gospel at the fastest rate now is Jews. I haven't seen the evidence to back it up, but some preacher claimed that recently. God is still at work in Israel. In fact, how can some of the eschatological events take place if God does not work in them before they believe? Do you think the nation of Israel as a state formed by accident?


    I wrote
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Show me one verse that says that God's signs and wonders would be done away with--temporarily-- to come back after the rapture. I can't even find this pre-tribulational rapture stuff in scripture. Paul has Jesus coming back and the resurrection all occuring together.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    You responded
    You did not such thing. You made a bunch of arguments about 7 years, etc. Like I pointed out, these verses say nothing about gifts ceasing temporarily and coming back during the tribulation. You have a bunch of theories about your time periods. I am asking for the scriptural proof to back them up.

    Also, notice the title of the thread. Paul did not expect the Corinthians to come behind in any gift as they waited for the Lord's coming. His eschatology did not include a gap when the saints would come behind in spiritual gifts as they waited for the Lord's coming.


    I wrote,

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Show me scripture that says that the only role of tongues is as a sign.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Did you actually read my post before responding?

    Again, I Corinthians 12 shows that tongues is one of the gifts that profits the BODY OF CHRIST.

    This is clear from the passage. Do you believe I Corinthians 12 is scripture or not? Do you accept it as true or not?

    If tongues profits the body, is that the same function of tongues as being a sign to unbelievers? Please answer this question. If the answer is 'no' then tongues has a function other than being a sign to unbelievers.

    Show me where the Bible says that the ONLY function of tongues is as a sign.

    If tongues edifies the church, that is another function of tongues. It contradicts your idea that tongues is ONLY for a sign to unbelievers (or as you think, the Jews.)

    What about all those other verses in I Corinthians 14? Look at verses 26-28. Tongues with interpretation is to be spoken out IN THE CHURCH. Look at the beginning of the passage where we learn that if someone speaks in tongues, he edifies himself, but if there is an interpretation it edifies the church.

    The church still needs to be edified. One Biblical command on tongues is 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' Do you obey this scripture?


    I believe true spiritual gifts line up with scripture, too.

    So do we agree that the Bible does not replace the things it tells us to have, like love faith, and spiritual gifts?
     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Link it is obvious that you don't want to see what Scripture clearly teaches, so be it, but I will not continue to waste my time responding to you.

    You are absolutely incorrect in saying that the Jews were spiritually dead. The entire Gospel accounts tell us otherwise, but you won't believe that either.
     
  17. Balion

    Balion New Member

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    Hello all, my first post and this is as good a subject as any.

    I find it interesting that so many struggle to understand the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 14. I find it disturbing that many do not understand that the church of Corinth was so carnal and were living among pagans, whom also spoke in "tongue". There are still pagan religions today that speak in this way.
    Do you not see that Paul is stopping just short of scolding the church? Why do you think he is scolding them?

    Know this, whenever Paul speaks about the true gift of "tongues", it is called just that, "TONGUES" (plural). Check yourself in the book of Acts.
    However, when he speaks of the "gift" that the Corinthians were claiming to have and boasting of such, he calls it a "TONGUE" (singular).

    One must keep in mind that when Paul is telling them to "prophesy" he is telling them to "proclaim the word".

    Also keep in mind that 1 Corinthians 14: 2 should read "A" God. Thus reading as "For he who speaks in a "TONGUE" does not speak to men but to "A" God, for no one can understand. However in the spirit he he speaks mysteries.
    But he who prophesy's (proclaims the word of God) speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."

    In verse 4 Paul WARNS US that he "who speaks in a tongue, edifies HIMSELF, but he who (proclaims the word of God) edifies the church"- Now why do I say Paul "WARNS US"? Are we to ever edify our own selves? Absolutely not! Scripture clearly teaches us this. All gifts from the Holy Spirit were to edify the church. None were for our own edification.
    Again, clearly "tongue" was not the gift from the Holy Spirit" Lest "Tongues" was the from the Holy Spirit. Test this on your own, as the word commands you.

    Paul continues on to explain that when one speaks in a Tongue, that no one can understand them and that it does nothing for the church. It is Jibberish.

    Now some would say, "but Paul even says he thinks the Lord that he speaks in TONGUES"..notice he said Tongues, not Tongue.
    Others will say "what about when Paul says "I wish you all spoke in TONGUES" (v 5), one must realize he is saying, "I wish you all really could speak in tongues"

    One must read the entire book so it is seen easily in context.

    I would like to state in a different matter, please refrain from saying things such as "well my God is this" or "my God is that". Remember that all who profess Christ as Lord, share the same God. Otherwise we remain no different from the pagans. Let us speak with understanding towards one another, as we are commanded. Otherwise we prove our judgement is already clouded, as we are biased.
     
  18. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    I picked up on a point Link made and would like to amplify it...

    Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
    Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
    Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
    Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
    Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

    This was in a gentile city and the Special Miracles were after the Jews kicked them out...

    Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
    Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

    You can try to say that the Miracles among the Gentiles were for the Jews benefit...

    But, the fact is they were performed among, that is *FOR*, the Gentiles...

    Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
    Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
    Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
    Acts 8:8 And there was great joy in that city.
    Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
    Acts 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
    Acts 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
    Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    I wouldn't try telling a full-blooded Jew that a Samaritan was a Jew. :D

    So, IMHO, it would appear that Signs and Wonders and Miracles were in fact done among non-Jews...

    And,

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

    While Paul would try the Jews first, once they rejected the message at the Synagog level he went to the Gentiles...

    SMM
     
  19. Link

    Link New Member

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    Dear Balion

    Welcome to the forum. I hope you don't mind if I start off disagreeing with you.

    The problem is, there is nothing in the context of the epistle that refers to pagan speaking in tongues. Sure, the Oracle of Delphi said some kind of jibberish that was hard to understand. But Paul makes no reference to this sort of thing in the epistles.

    I just looked at verse 28, and it uses 'tongue' singular to refer to the genuine gift. The KJV says,

    "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."

    The next verse continues on to refer to interpretations.

    If tongues were pagan, why would Paul say to let it happen?

    A retired Greek professor I know says that this is about one person speaking in a tongue because Greek grammar demands it. The word translated 'man' here is 'tis' and means 'one.' So he considers the two or three to refer to the utterances spoken.

    Since 'one' person is speaking here, it makes sense that he would be speaking one language, or 'tongue' in archaic language. One person usually speaks one language at a time. It is hard to speak in two languages at the same time.


    It makes more sense to interpret 'tongue' as one language and 'tongues' as multiple languages. That is what the word means and it makes the most sense in the passage.

    Also, in verse 14, Paul says if he prays in a tongue, singular, his spirit prays.

    That definition does not tell the difference between prophecy and other gifts for proclaiming the word. In I Corinthians 12, Paul lists prophets at teachers as separate giftings. Romans 12 lists prophecy and teaching as separate gifts. Teachers teach principles and precepts. Prophesying is speaking (generally) as moved by the Holy Ghost, as Peter describes it.


    That sounds like something JW's would do, add in 'a' before God like in John 1:1. I have a Greek interlinear in my lap, and I don't see an indefinite article there. It does not make sense to think that Paul would suddenly call a false god, 'God' in the passage when He has been using the term consistently to refer to God. even when he refers to false gods in chapter 8, he says that though there be that are called gods, we know that there is but one true God. I can't think of any time where Paul would refer to a pagan god with the word theos without some kind of explanation that they are not true gods. It does not seem consistent with Paul's usage throughout his writings. There is no reason to believe that this is what he means except that you think that is what he means.


    What? If you believe this, you must never pray by yourself or read the Bible alone. The issue is not that self edification is wrong. Edify means build up, and building ones self up is good. Jude ends with an exhortation to build yourselves up in the most Holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. David encouraged himself in the Lord.

    The issue is that in church, we are to edify one another, not just edify ourselves. Therefore, as Paul argues, a message in tongues must be interpreted so that all may be edified. Don't you agree that this is Paul's argument in the passage, that tongues must be interpretted so that all may be edified?

    The Bible says the gifts are given to 'profit withall.' But it never teaches that one cannot be built up by one's own gift. In fact, it teaches against this idea, because tongues is a gift and one who uses it can edify himself.

    Do you have anything in the context ofthe book to point to that you think proves your theory? Or does your theory work if we only assume that 'tongue' refers to false tongues?

    The problem is that 'tongue' refers to the real thing in verses 14 and 28.
     
  20. Link

    Link New Member

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    J Jump
    wrote
    If someone disagrees with you, that is no reason to slander them. I backed up my arguments with reason and scripture. If I am wrong about something, and you can show me from the Bible, I will change my point of view. Can you say the same about yourself? What I see is that when someone makes an argument from scripture that you are wrong, you just write that person off as not caring what the Bible says.

    Why don't you humble yourself enough to look up the verses people post to you and consider that you might be wrong?

    Were the Jews alive? Why don't you bother to open to Romans 10. Paul tells us there two ways to be alive, by keeping the law, and by faith. He tells us Israel did not seek it by faith, so he did not obtain what he sought for. If Israel was not 'alive' by faith or by keeping the law, how can you argue that they were alive?

    As far as I can tell, Romans is the book that goes into the most detail on what it means to be alive spiritually and how to get spiritual life. It's a major theme in the book. The just shall live by faith.

    And just to clarify, I don't believe all Jews in Jesus time were spiritually dead. Some responded with faith. Some repented at the preaching of John. Some believed when Jesus came. Paul is dealing with the issue of Jews in general, particularly those who did not believe.

    Let's examine your arguments so far. Paul said that the Jews require a sign. From this, you conclude that signs were only for Jews? The verse says no such thing. The Jews wanted signs. Would the desire of the Jews for signs mean that God would never give Gentiles signs? No, of course not. You need to make a stronger case. I point out the weakness of your case and give you an example of a sign done among Gentiles and you accuse me of not wanting to know what the Bible teaches. Who is the one who does not want to know what the Bible teaches? If you do want to know, don't attack the character of those who disagree. Instead, deal with the arguments. Study the Bible and post the scriptures and reasons for what you believe.

    You are arguing that tongues are ONLY for a sign. I pointed you to passages of Scripture that show that tongues benefited the church and were given to edify the church. You did not even respond to this argument. Instead, you said I don't care what the Bible says.

    You are the one not demonstrating a desire to know what the Bible clearly teaches. If you don't want to participate in the conversation, you can pull out in a dignified manner. But don't attack the character or motivation of those who disagree with you and put forth solid arguments.

    For a passage on signs among the Gentiles, look at Romans 15:18-19

    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
    19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the Gospel of Christ.

    Notice the signs and wonders Paul preached among the Gentiles, part of what he did not make the Gentiles obedient. Paul used words and deeds to make the Gentiles obedient. 'Signs and wonders' are deeds. He also used 'words' when he fully preached the Gospel of Christ.

    Now, show me the scripture that specifically says that no signs would be done for Gentiles, and that signs are ONLY for Jews. Don't show me a verse that says signs are for Jews, but rather a verse that says they are only for Jews and not for Gentiles.
     
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