"I could sing 7-11s 24-7...." (branch of New Hymns thread)

And,one more thing I wanted to add after reading your response....we don't measure a church's success by the numbers of members or even new converts...we measure success by the standard of scripture that is being upheld...is the church biblical,do the men who lead meet the standards for eldership,are the people living godly lives,is the Word being taught in and out of season,is worship authentic,heart felt,holy,set apart for a Holy Magnificent God? These and many more show if a church is right....not the fruit of seeing others come to Christ,that will be the work of God in His time.

There are many small churches with little growth,who are humble bible believing,faighful folks who have a *successful*(based on scripture,not numbers) church,as you put it.

It looks like you may be missing the first button,then everything else is off after that. If you think the purpose of the church is for growth(evangelism) and everything the church does is to *see* results,then that foundation is off and then a church is way out of balance. Then whatever *works* is allowed!

In Christ and standing on His Word,
Molly

 

Before I pick up stones and join Molly would you please define what you mean by that statement?

Thanks. (It's too dark for a good stoning here tonight, but just you wait . . ) </font>[/QUOTE]An African missionary goes into the inner parts of the Eastern African rainforest, making contact with a tribe that has never seen anyone from the outside. An inner-city pastor reaches out to impoverished children playing basketball in the slums of Detroit. Do these two people share the gospel story the same way?

A broken child who has been brutally sexually assaulted is approached by a Christian counselor. A non-churched middle-class family in Tulsa, OK moves in next door to a deacon and his family. Should these two groups hear the gospel message in the same way?

Each of these examples shows me that the telling of the gospel story must be relevant. The gospel message - the good news of Jesus Christ - does NOT change. How we relate it to the listener does.

 

See what I wrote the good doctor. I think that you would agree that relevancy is, indeed, important.

Their messages are quite relevant. Their rhetoric, however, is to a large number of people in the US, and even more in the world.

 

But what is the main mission of the church? The main mission isn't to meet standards for eldership, although that is important. It is not even to have authentic worship, although, that, too is important. Our command as Christians is to make disciples. We are to be his witnesses at home, in the areas around us, and to the rest of the world. And if a church is based upon the Bible, that will also be their mission. That is, indeed, the standard of Scripture. Too many churches that I have seen are not experiencing growth - the reason for this is that the people are not "making disciples." They have too many other things to worry about.

The question is: Are they making a difference in people's lives? Are they reaching out to their non-Christian believers? Are they making disciples? If the answer to any of these is "no", then according to the command of Christ, it is not a successful church.

There are many purposes of the church. But what is the main mission? Reaching non-believers is quite Scriptural, and the church that is not focusing on reaching the lost is not Scriptural.

 

Glorifying God is the purpose of the church....evangelism is a part,but seeker sensitive philosophy makes the seeker more important than being biblical. I'm sure these small faithful churches are making a difference in the lives of others,not through programs and worldy entertainment,but through biblical kindness,serving one another. If there are churches who are just going to church and not living out the Word,then I would say,yes,something is wrong. But,a church does not have to have increased nubers and such to prove to being a successful church...too many churches have bought that lie.

Evangelism is one part of the church...it should not control all aspects of the church. If a church is being biblical,they will be naturally sharing Christ with others....true believers do that...but the church does not cater to the desires and wants of a non believer so they will come to church. That is my bottom line.

Thanks and Happy day!

Molly

 

Not true, and I don't think you can prove it.

But are they serving the non-Christian world? What is the fruit of their actions?

How does Christ define success? Should we not use that as our marker?

Seeker-sensitive churches do not let evangelism control all aspects of the church, but it very important.

So if a church is not sharing Christ with non-believers, then it is not a Biblical church. You would agree with that?

Question - because you've said it a couple of times - what is it that a non-believer wants and desires? What do churches do that satisfy them? Are you sure that churches are doing what you believe them to be doing?

 

Yes,in fact,I know first hand of a church that did a local survey to people who do not attend church...the survey asked questions like...What could a church do to make you want to come...what should change in churches today...etc,etc.


The info from this survey was compiled and the church started on the road of attracting the goats...and disciping the believers already there was not that important...they did have some bible studies,but nothing very in depth...the worship became a more rock and roll type with a band(a hokey band),praise singers,tamborines(you get the idea)...the preaching was on a level that everyone could understand(which doesn't sound bad,but there were ltiile sermonettes based on a sweet story told at the beginning of the *sermon*. It was not teaching the Word,but a story telling,feel good type sermon that made people think...how nice.

Yes,this goes on....maybe not at your church,but it is a philosophy accepted by many.

Do you think these techniques are good and edifying to a group of believers?


Still not wavering,
Molly

 

Oh,and to answer your question...what do people want....well,the Bible speaks about a time that they will want to have there ears tickled,not wanting sound doctrine....hmmmm....I think most people want to feel good,like they are okay and God loves them...not conviction of sin,or to really understand the Holiness of God...but to walk away thinking....Church sure made me feel good today.

Now,I do believe there is no joy greater than the joy found in Christ,but there is something wrong when the Bible is watered down to the point that grace and love are the main topics.

There are some churches that I believe have a correct balance...but most,I'm afraid do not have a balance,but lean so far on evangelism being the whole thrust of the church,that everything they do is for that. Very dangerous.

I'm not saying your church is like this...it may not be...but,some are!

Thanks for discussing this so kindly!

Molly

Edited for NUMEROUS typos!

 

This is one church. What is your evidence that it is more wide-spread?

Is it possible to change some things, such as making the music more modern and by offering more outreach events and classes, and remain Biblical?

 

Those who come to church are coming for answers, I have found. They are searching for something different in their life. Those who want to feel good and okay generally do not come to church.

Grace and love should definitely be main topics. Grace, because it is the only means to salvation, and love, because it embodies God more than any other word.

Is there a difference between a church having their main thrust as evangelism and their whole thrust on evangelism? I've never heard of a church that had evangelism as its sole thrust.

 

Dr. Bob,

What a post!!! Well said!! I think I'll print it out, frame it, and hang it on my wall!!

 

What did you think of the cultural relevance post?

And we'd probably disagree with what they need. The non-Christian people who come to my church now (and who have come to every church that I've been a part of) come because they were invited by a friend, they were honestly looking for something, or they wanted to "belong."

And here is where we disagree. I think what they need is love. Our top commands from Christ were to love God and love each other. The Bible says that they will know us by our love. People will understand who Christ is by our love. THAT will convict them. Romans 8 clearly states that the law means nothing to the unregenerate man. It doesn't make any sense. How then can we use the law to see themselves as guilty when they don't even buy the premise as unbelievers? I agree that churches shouldn't trick people to believe. But accepted? Of course we should accept non-believers into our churches. We should love them so much that they understand what they must do differently to experience that kind of love.

They will know we are Christians by our love. "By this all men will KNOW that you are my disciples - if you have love to another. And this begs the question: If they are spiritually blinded, what good will the law do?

What they need is love and gospel. You got it half-right.

 

Scott,Paul states that the law is our tudor,it shows us our sin. We have to teach what it really means to be a believer...they must have an understanding of their sin. Of course we love others....we should be the example of Christ's love to all,those in the church and outside the church...we all agree on this point.

Where we disagree is on the relevancy of scripture. I believe scripture is sharper than a two edged sword,able to go straight to the heart of man. The goal is to teach the Word,so that God does His work in the unregenrated heart of man. There is no other way for this to happen. God's way is to preach the Word. So much time and energy is spent on the non-essentials!

Like Dr. Bob has stated,what they think they need and what they really need are 2 different things.

That article you posted on another thread undermines almost everything I believe the church to be. I can not say it any nicer than that. Too many churches are going down this route and I think it is at the expense of the purity of the church.

We have had evangelistic type meetings,meeting designed for lost friends to come,these were things other than worship services...we pray for their salvation and hope they come to Christ in repentance,but we trust God to do that...we don't change a worship service of believers to try to make that happen. Our regular worship times are God centered worship that is designed for believers,who know and love God.

Hope this clarifies.
Molly

 

To show what it really means to be a believer, we must love. The Bible cannot spell this out any clearer, especially I John! The Law is OUR tutor as Christians, but those who are not saved cannot understand it.

Oh, I agre with the relevancy of Scripture. We disagree in how Scripture is relevant.

And seeker-sensitive churches do just that.

Is it the article that says we are to befriend non-Christians? How is that a bad thing?

So are you saying that if a church uses contemporary music, then that music cannot be God-centered? Only specific types of music are God-centered? God-glorifying lyrics cannot mix with specific types of music?

 

Well,as far as music,it is difficult to say what should be okay and what is not,since most is preference.

I would have a problem with words about Christ and his suffereing sung to a light carefree yankee doodle tune....or a song with deep meaningful words being sung to a loud rock beat...it just doesn't fit,nor would it be appropriate for corporate worship. Some are offended by those kinds of things...whether that is right or wrong,we should consider our brother and put them before ourselves. Most people we have seen that are wanting contempo style music,push it on others,with no regard to their likes and dislikes,making their preferences more weighty than those who do not like it.

And,if it is done to make church more appealing,I disagree with the philosophly behind it.

We were in a church with a contemporary push from a group...my husband and I always taught with the youth so we were very familiar with the music and felt some of it was approprite for the youth at times,but when they wanted the entire church service to be a youth concert,we had some concerns,so after years of studying this very topic,this is where we are.

I am not opposed to new music,but I am opposed to a philosophy that puts style ahead of everything else. They will never say:*style is more important than the Word*,but they won't give it up either...what does this tell you?

What is the thrust of your middle school minstry? Bibe study,music style,social gatherings? Do the children have a desire for God's Word? Do they memorize large sections of scripture? Are they being taught to obey their parents? I'm just curious after reading your church's website. It looks like a nice church.

Molly

 

I'll do you one better. The previous chapter, Romans 7, shows that the Law alone only makes the fallan nature more rebellious! This was the mistake of the old-time religion which focused on Law, and appeared to have everybody scared into line for awhile, but then it all burst out and went to the opposite extreme, and here we are arguing about styles and seeker friendliness.
It is true, that we can't just give everybody everything they want. People do need to be given the sense that they are sinners and need to repent, and that God, through His Church is offering them new life, not just good times, great fun. The trick for all of us is to keep it all in balance.

 

What about those who press their hymns on those who don't like them? There are many, many churches that do those things as well.

But you're talking out of two sides of your mouth here. First you say that we should put our brother above ourselves. Does that include what type of music he wants to worship with? What about making church more appealing to believers? Does that count for anything?

And that makes sense. But you also must realize that not churches that use contemporary music are making it a youth concert. In fact, what you speak of represents a very small minority of churches. A concert is designed for people to sit back and listen - worship is designed for people to stand and participate!

If the Word is found in their lyrics, then why should they give up their style? To acqueisce to perhaps the older minority? Each church is different, and must decide as a body what types of music to use in worship, whether contemporary, blended, or traditional.

Our desire with our middle school ministry is to "Respond to the Greatness and Glory of God." We have a very strong Sunday School program, with about 60 regular students every Sunday. Since last August, we have had 120 first-time visitors come to our Sunday School. We also have a Wednesday night worship service for the students. We consistently and constantly stress the utter importance of God's Word. We do use a contemporary style of music, but every single one of our songs is worshipful. Last week's songs were: "Hallelujah (Your Love is Amazing), Undignified, Praise Adonai, Great Is Your Love, Famous One, and You Have Made Me Glad."

The students do have a desire for God's Word. In fact, each of them last Wednesday received one entire book of the Bible to read (I talked about how excited students get about Harry Potter and what it would look like if Christian students were that excited about the Word). Tomorrow, I will ask them what they learned. Most of the students came up to me and said on Sunday that they had already read their book and were going to read it again before Wednesday!

The students are taught applicability of the Scriptures. I do more of a family-based ministry, getting parents and family members as involved as possible. In September, we are having a retreat where our purpose is to examine God's expectation for the family (including obedience, of course!)

We do all of this with a seeker-mentality. Starting in August, we are gearing for 100% growth. Each student is going to be asked to invest their lives in a non-Christian friend. Hopefully, they will come to church and allow Christ to take over their lives. If each of them are willing to do this for one student (and some, hopefully, even more), we will grow the kingdom for His sake. At the same time, we will not let up a single iota on the Word, on the application of Christ in our live, and on the importance and necessity of worshipping a Holy God.

If you're ever in Florida, come on by! We'd love to have you visit our kids!

 

I like that you incorporate the family into your ministry with the children. That is very important to us. We feel as parents that we should be the ones teaching our children and the church can and should reinforce what we are training them in,but the authority has been given by God to the parents. I like those kind of youth groups. Our church does things kinda like what you have mentioned. The youth group memeorized the book of James recently! I was amazed. Our children are not that age yet,but we like the very basic biblical,family oriented youth groups.

God Bless,
Molly