I don't understand...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by wizofoz, May 9, 2003.

  1. wizofoz

    wizofoz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2003
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinist, Arminian, all this bickering back and forth about who's right and who isn't.

    1 Corinthians 3:3 - "For you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
    4 - For when one says "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
    5 - Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
    6- I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

    Are not some of you saying "I am of Calvin" and others saying "I am of Arminius"?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Actually, contending for and defending the "faith" is not "bickering" and "fighting". It is probably one of the few things WORTH fussing over.

    Doctrine IS important . . and WAY MORE IMPORTANT than fellowship. Look at the first verses about the local church in Jerusalem =

     
  3. wizofoz

    wizofoz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2003
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    So "contending for the faith" includes questioning the salvation of the other party, telling them they are completely wrong, calling them ignorant, etc.

    That's what I've been reading in some of the Calvinism/Arminian posts.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes, the apostles' doctrine.
    Who's doctrine are the Calvinists and Arminians following?
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    If our forefathers had followed your advice, we would all be Catholics.
     
  5. wizofoz

    wizofoz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2003
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    Meaning......?
     
  6. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems to me that those who refer to themselves as Calvinists are following John Calvin, and/or those who authored the Dort confession, and others in the similar vein. Such who are referred to as Arminians are seldom calling themselves by this epithet. They however believe some things the same as Arminius did. But I think more correct would perhaps be to say that Arminians or free willers as they are also called are following Wesley's system rather than Arminius', and some of them are even more Finneyites. But most Arminians I compare to Billy Graham, the ecumenical deceiver.

    Yet it seems to me that in general both Calvinists and Arminians go no further than to the Protestant Reformation, and stop there. Some Calvinists may go back to the Romanist Augustine. But to me it seems that those who go all the way back to Paul the apostle and the New Testament of the Lord Christ don't want to associate with either Calvin or Arminius. Calvin was heretical on some points, Arminus dito. Christ Jesus the Lord and those who were His penmen of the NT were orthodox.


    Harald
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Meaning......?

    Doctrine matters and is worth "bickering" over.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sounds like you have been visiting the Calvinism/Arminianism Debate Forum. It is certainly not for the faint of heart. It's the BaptistBoard equivalent of a bar room brawl. [​IMG]
     
  9. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Harald, I agree that it is not a good idea to align ourselves with any man as we are all subject to justifiable criticism. Only Christ is worthy of our unquestioned loyalty. As men are not worthy of our devotion some are also not worthy of our vilification. While I am quite sure Billy Graham can be justifiably criticized, I am also equally confident that his ministry (spiritually speaking) beats the daylights out of mine and yours combined. ;)
     
  10. Pete

    Pete
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the topic is just how you like your steak BBQd, then it is not worth getting fired up about, fire up the barbie instead [​IMG] However God gave plenty of warnings about false doctrine & teachers of it in His Word (1 Timothy 4:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-5, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Titus 1:9-11, Titus 2:1, and a cast of thousands...)

    I have no problem if someone questions my salvation, or tells me I am wrong or ignorant or whatever...They just better be able to run fast...ARGH! My train of thought had another derailment, forgot what I was going to type next. Oh well, I'll edit this later if I remember [​IMG]

    Pete
     
  11. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    Artimaeus. While I cannot claim to be anything in a spiritual sense, and while I cannot speak for you, my guess is that both of us beat Billy Graham when it comes to doctrinal correctness. He may have done some seemingly good things, but I bet if his works were examined in the light of the whole councel of God's word they would be seen to be worthless, no better than those of the pope or Mother Theresa. It is quite plain to me that Billy Graham proclaims a false gospel, and has done so all along. I have never respected him as a religious leader and will never ever do so. I think he is a man who has deceived many into a false hope. He ought not only to be criticized, but also rebuked, marked, and avoided.


    Harald
     
  12. ezrider

    ezrider
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    </font>[/QUOTE]but wern't they contending the faith with unbelievers? since this was the begining of the church, and not contending with each other, they might have been discussing the way of christianity, as opposed to judaism(sp?) and contending more important than fellowshiping?
     
  13. RTB

    RTB
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0
    Harald
    I admit thatI have never listened to a Billy Graham sermon, I know who he is of course, but could you explain to me how he has taught a false doctrine?

    In Christ

    Ronnie
     
  14. Harald

    Harald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    0
    RTB. Billy Graham has taught many false doctrines. Below is only a brief example. I do not in any way endorse the site from which I found these, but give the link for reference purpose. Much more can be found of what heretical Mr. Graham has taught down through the years.


    This is the first part of an approximately 7-minute long broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, 31st May, 1997. This is an exact transcript of an excerpt close to the end of the broadcast.

    Robert Schuller: "Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?"

    Billy Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer -- you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven."

    Robert Schuller: "What, what I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"

    Billy Graham: "Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

    [Robert Schuller trips over his tongue for a moment, his face beaming, then says]

    Robert Schuller: "I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy."

    Billy Graham: "There is. There definitely is."

    from
    http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/evil/bg7.htm

    Billy Graham Believes In The Power Of Infant Baptism

    Billy Graham holds to Rome's false gospel of baptismal regeneration. The following quote is from an article writen in October of 1961, after Graham gave an interview to Lutheran clergyman Wilfred Brockelman, who was then the associate editor of The Lutheran Standard:

    "I have some difficulty in accepting the indiscriminate baptism of infants without a careful regard as to whether the parents have any intention of fulfilling the promise they make. But I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant, particularly if the parents are Christians and teach their children Christian Truths from childhood. We cannot fully understand the miracles of God, but I believe a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, made Christians through infant baptism. If you want to call that baptismal regeneration, that’s all right with me" (The Lutheran Standard, "Time", American Lutheran Church, October 27, 1961) Brockelman said, "One would assume that, as a Baptist, Dr. Graham would be opposed to infant baptism." Brockelman not only found this not to be the case, but that Graham's wife, Ruth, and all their children but the youngest, were baptized as infants. (Reported in the summer 1991 Dorea, pp. 9-10.)

    from http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/evil/bg8.htm


    Harald
     
  15. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Harald, there is nothing like direct quotes for getting to the heart of the matter. I have listened to many Billy Graham sermons and am very surprised at his stand on these issues. He presents the gospel clearly and elequently. I am very disappointed to hear these things about his theology. It is a good thing I don't put anyone on a pedestal for them to fall off of. :D
     
  16. wizofoz

    wizofoz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2003
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    I never said doctrine didn't matter. But discussing differences is one thing, having an "you don't believe how I do so you're a heretic scum who's gonna burn" attitude is another.

    I've seen some good discussions, yes, but usually some discussions end up as one poster noted, in a bar room brawl.
     

Share This Page

Loading...