I fear

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    I fear that many five point Calvinists (the ones who are hyper-Calvinists) are heretics (not all, but some) who have fooled themselves into thinking they belong to Christ.

    If a person believes that they just all of a sudden recognized that they are part of the redeemed without repenting of their sins and accepting the free gift of salvation from God, I seriously doubt that they are saved at all!

    Now, I'm not talking about a born again Christian who is saved and then stumbles into the doctrinal error of Calvinism. Nor am I talking about the person who is either raised in or is attending a reformed church who truly sees their need for salvation and repents and accepts Christ.
     
  2. The Archangel

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    This is incendiary
    .

    It is obvious you do not understand what we believe. Almost no Calvinist (though there are some, and they're wrong) will suggest that salvation can occur without actual, personal, response to God in repentance and faith.

    Unfortunately, Robert, posts like this show that you cannot wrap your mind around what we actually believe. It is probably ignorance (in the true sense of the word) on your part and is therefore not intended to be incendiary. But, it is incendiary nonetheless.

    Every Calvinist that I know preaches the need to respond to God in repentance and faith. I myself preach that very message every Sunday.

    Many Calvinists preach that message every day and every time they preach. I heard Mark Dever preach the necessity of personal repentance and faith at the Together for the Gospel conference in 2008--and that was in a convention center full of Christians and Calvinists!

    Please get your facts straight. Don't look at a caricature of Calvinism, look at Calvinists and what they are doing and what they are preaching. The actual picture is light-years different from the caricature.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  3. matt wade

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    It seems that if you would have read Snow's post carefully Archangel, then you would realize he wasn't talking about you. He specifically excluded those with beliefs such as yours with the statement "...who truly sees their need for salvation and repents and accepts Christ".

    His statement "If a person believes that they just all of a sudden recognized that they are part of the redeemed without repenting of their sins and accepting the free gift of salvation from God, I seriously doubt that they are saved at all!" is very true. If you don't fall into that category then don't take it as a personal attack on you.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    well, it is incendiary.
    if Mr. Snow is referring to someone specifically, then he should call out that someone because the long and short of what he said is that whoever it is he is referring to is unsaved.
     
  5. Jerome

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    "Another very numerous class have opinion but not faith, creed but not credence. We meet them everywhere. How zealous they are for Protestantism! They would not only die for orthodoxy, but kill others as well. Perhaps it is the Calvinistic doctrine which they have received, and then the five points are as dear to them as their five senses. These men will contend, not to say earnestly, but savagely for the faith. They very vehemently denounce all those who differ from them in the smallest degree; and deal damnation round the land with amazing liberality to all who are not full weight according to the balance of their little Zoar, Rehoboth, or Jireh: while all the while the spirit of Christ, the love of the Spirit, bowels of compassion, and holiness of character are no more to be expected from them than grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles. Doctrine, my brethren, is to be prized above all price! Woe to the Church of God when error shall be thought a trifle, for truth be lightly esteemed; and when truth is gone, what is left? But, at the same time, we grossly mistake if we think that orthodoxy of creed will save us. I am sick of those cries of "the truth," "the truth," "the truth," from men of rotten lives and unholy tempers. There is an orthodox as well as a heterodox road to hell, and the devil knows how to handle Calvinists quite as well as Arminians. No pale of any Church can insure salvation, no form of doctrine can guarantee to us eternal life. "Ye must be born again" Ye must bring forth fruits meet for repentance. "Every tree which bringeth not forth fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Stopping short of vital union to the Lord Jesus by real faith, we miss the great qualification for entering heaven. Yet the time is not come when these mere head-knowers are cursed. These trees have leaves only, but no fatal curse has withered them hopelessly. No; they are to be sought after; they may yet know the Lord in their hearts, and the Holy Spirit may yet make them humble followers of the Lamb. O that it may be so!" —Charles Spurgeon, Nothing But Leaves
     
  6. Martin

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    ==I don't know, or know of, any Bible believing, knowledgeable Calvinist who believes they are saved without turning to Christ as Lord and Savior. I stress Bible believing and knowledgeable because we can always find pew warmers, or extremists, on both sides who think they are saved because they attend church (etc). That is not a problem in Calvinism alone. That is a problem that all churches have. It is a real big problem and it is getting bigger. Not because of Calvinism, but rather because of the lack of Biblical preaching and teaching that is going on in so many churches.
     
    #6 Martin, Feb 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2010
  7. Skandelon

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    I'm not even aware of any hyper Calvinists who would claim this, are you?
     
  8. Jerome

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    Why Are Calvinists So Negative?
     
  9. Martin

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    Claim what?
     
  10. Skandelon

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    what robert said in the OP. I've never heard a Calvinist argue that point.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Your ignorance of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace is pathetic!
     
  12. OldRegular

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    The truth is that Snow, like many others on this Forum, have an ungodly fear of the Doctrines of Grace. I can only wonder why.
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    The person who is a redeemed and is a part of a Christian church did not all of a sudden realize he is a part of the redeemed like somebody who bumped his head and with the lump he feels exclaims, "I am heaven bound, hallelujah !!". Such a statement is an example of the sarcasm with which those ignorant of the Doctrine of Grace and resistant to God's sovereignty in ALL things, portray those who hold to God's absolute sovereignty.

    Every Calvinist and adherent of the Doctrine of Grace on this board that I have read came to the realization of the blessedness and truthfulness of God's sovereign electing grace as a matter of revelation of the Holy Spirit to them, and a close and careful study of Scriptures, I believe often apart from any man's writings and opinions, but also at times referring to what both Arminian or Calvinists said about certain points of Scripture.

    On the other hand, there are indeed those who are redeemed and may never come to the blessed realization of their eternal condition here in time, or may never be exposed to the gospel at all while living here in time, and if anyone, be he Arminian or Calvinist, has a quarrel with that, I issue a challenge to produce Scripture that every redeemed of God MUST of necessity come under the hearing of the gospel, and MUST of necessity be an adherent of correct theology or soteriology, BEFORE Christ claims him His own.

    Not even the most rabid murderers of the Doctrine of Grace on this board, Messrs. Skandelon or Winman can point to such Scriptures and make such unqualified and unequivocal claim.

    By and large, every Scripture anyone can produce will inevitably be shown to have nothing at all to do with eternal salvation.
     
    #13 pinoybaptist, Feb 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2010
  14. annsni

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    Pitiful ignorance.
     
  15. Steven2006

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    I am not a Calvinist, but the OP doesn't really make sense. Did they receive notice in the mail or something?
     
  16. Robert Snow

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    Wow! I used the term hyper-Calvinist.

    I have heard some argue that those God has elected will be saved regardless of whether or not they even hear the Gospel.

    I was not talking about any person here. Believe it or not, I talk to people when I am not on the Internet.

    I was not attacking any member here whether or not they believe in Calvinism or not. In fact, my pastor is a two-point Calvinist, and I agree with him. Again, I used the term hyper-Calvinist. I don't see these people as Calvinist like the one's here on the BB. Again, let me repeat, hyper-Calvinist.

    I have been accused in the thread more than once of being ignorant concerning the doctrines of grace. If so, I plead guilty, but before I do, please enlighten me.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Well, then, whether you were truly not referring to me, for one, or not, I am not able to discern but I, for one, say the above.

    First of all, I do not think the use of the term "will be saved" is appropriate anymore, unless, of course, by some form of verbal maneuvering or semantics we can cause the terms "having obtained eternal redemption for us" found in Hebrews 9:12 to mean anything else other than that eternal redemption is already a reality, finished, done, which necessitates people to still 'be saved', which in turn, logically, requires a present and ongoing redemption by a redeemer, as opposed to one who, by His own blood, entered into the rest of the Eternal God by sitting at the right hand of power.

    If eternal redemption has been obtained, rightfully by the rightful Person, Jesus Christ, who should obtain it for those for whom redemption is purposed, His people, then the gospel has no power to grant that redemption, at all, since it is already finished.

    Therefore, whether or not the ones to whom that redemption is intended, hears the gospel does not at all affect their eternal standing. They have been redeemed and saved by the Son of God, sanctified by Him, justified through His blood, and the purpose of the gospel is merely to INFORM them of their redemption, and point them to their redeemer, that they may worship Him, and live a life that is worthy of His Name.

    Am I belittling the gospel ?

    No, I am not. It is an important part of God's plan for His people, but it has no part at all in their eternal redemption, which is over.

    OTOH, if redemption has not been obtained, then there is a lot of referring to the Greek that has to be done, a lot of debating about what this or that word means and actually intended to convey, a lot of aspiring to seminary education that the preacher "called" by God to save the souls of His people has to do.
    Most importantly, the souls and salvation of millions of people now depended on the ability and willingness of people to "respond" to God's call, to forsake their family, their own lives, and risk everything for.....the Gospel.
    More than that, the Creator God, who spoke everything around us into existence, would most utterly have failed, because while He put in writing for one and all to see that "He would have all men to be saved", in fact, many men are being doomed to eternity in hell because, alas, unlike Him, mortal men cannot even create water to wash the sleep off their eyes, nor get to the grocery store without a car, much less get to faraway places like, say, Cambodia where the devil is really romping around among those sin-laden Buddhists.
    Without the gospel, how can they be saved ?

    So you see, Mr Snow, I would rather throw my lot in with a God who purposed to save many from the fallen race of Adam, and did it Himself, whose words I can trust to be true (let God be true, and every man a liar) when He says "it is finished" and I can rest assured that, indeed, in heaven there shall be many who will come out of great tribulation from ALL tongues, ALL nations, and ALL kindred, including many who lived before Abraham or Israel, in places far away from the East, when yet there was no gospel to preach, or limited, sinful men to preach it.

    Peace.
     
  18. RAdam

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    Nothing like the old Hyper-Calvinist charge. That one is old and has been hurled falsely at many a good man. It's really sad that people still fall into the same old tricks again and again. If your point were really strong enough to stand on its own, you wouldn't have to resort to name calling.

    I guess because I believe God sovereignly saves His people, has done so in all ages, and will continue to do so until the Lord returns from Heaven in all His glory that I'm a hyper-calvinist. Whatever. I'll go with what the bible teaches, and the bible teaches that God effectually calls His children from death to life and that when the gospel comes not in word only but also in power, in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance it is evidence of the fact that God has changed that person's heart. It is evidence of their election of God. If you hate these doctrines so much, so be it. Call me what names you will, I don't care. I'll go with the bible. But don't pretend that I don't believe in the need for repentance or that the doctrine I teach leads to this belief.

    The bible teaches clearly that the true motivation for repentance and godly living is not the fear of hell or the promise of everlasting life. It is the cross of Christ. Isaac Watts said, "when I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of glory died, my riches gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride."
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Robert, just curious, is hyper-Calvinist code name for Primitive Baptist? If it is, I'll have respect for you for being gutsy enough to admit it.
     
  20. kyredneck

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    .......and I see someone has honored this thread with a vote for a star..........

    I would likewise have respect for the one who would claim the vote.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Feb 19, 2010
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