I feel like no matter what I do it's wrong

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, May 31, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    This is really great. I am just reading a book from Wilkerson about the new covenant. (The new covenant unveiled) On page 74 he says that if you continue in sin God will take vengeance even though he will forgive you. This already sounds scary.
    He also says that for God hidden sins in his people's hearts are worse than the sins in wicked sinners. What are hidden sins? Sins which are unconfessed?
    And then he talks about the sin of Uzziah, who wanted to act as his own priest, on page 96 and quotes this here:

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    And he says that this means when you're trying to be your own priest and try to resists sin in your own strength and power then you bring God a strange fire of your own human energy.
    Is this really correct? Is this what these verses mean because these verses say when you do this you cannot be forgiven anymore.
    Anyway, this really confuses me. I mean what shall I do? I feel like everything I do is wrong. If I try to resist sin then I'm acting as my own priest and acting like Uzziah. Great.
    So what shall I do? Does this mean that when you sin you cannot even pray to God because this would mean that you try to get into his presence and instead of have to pray to Jesus?
    And then also this stuff with God punishing continued sin. This is also scary. Wilkerson says that the fear of God helps you not to sin and to take sin lightly. I have taken sin lighty. I am aware of this but this also happens very easily and I cannot really escape this. Does this mean God is punishing me now?
    And when the only thing which keeps me from sinning is the fear of God, the fear of God punishing me then isn't this also very depressing? Fearing that if you sin God will punish you with his divine rod?
    The problem with taking sin lightly is simply that every time when I have made up my mind about a sin and decided that it's bad and that I have to take it seriously I come across a thread on a christian forum where people discuss this sin and some say it's a sin and others say maybe it's not a sin and then once again I have my excuse. In this moment my own motivation and determination decrease and I can always say "well maybe it's not even a sin..." and this way you cannot even resist. But now where I read this "being your own priest" stuff I don't even know if trying to resist on my own was even good or wether this angered God even more. It's so frustrating. No matter what I do it's wrong. Let's say I resist sin then I automatically, without even wanting to be proud or self-righteous, I feel like God is happy now because I resisted. This is something which happens automatically. If I resist I feel good, if I fail I feel bad. But now I ask myself what if feeling good because of resisting is also angering God? I feel like no matter what I do it's always wrong. If I sin it's wrong, if I try to resist it's wrong. This is exactly what I mean. When I read christian books I only become more confused. And Wilkerson also says we shall ask God to give us the fear of God. I have done this in the past when I realized that I have become pretty insensitive towards some sins but I cannot say that much has changed since then. Why do these things not work when I do them? I feel like what works for others doesn't work for me.

    He also said another scary thing:

    Many flesh-driven christians try to shake off the guilt that God's convicting arrows produce.They don't want to feel the dread of their sin. So they constantly claim the verse "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...." But they neglect to read the last part of this verse:... who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit." If you continue in sin, you're walking in the flesh - and you have no claim on God's promise of "no condemnation." :eek:

    Does this mean they go to hell? :eek:
     
  2. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    This sounds an awful lot like ol' Dave Wilkerson wants you to rely on your own strength and willpower to make God love you.

    xdisciplex, you cannot make God love you. Niether can I. We will sin. We do sin. No matter how hard we try, we are always and forever going to fall short of God. Even after professing faith in God.

    What Wilkerson forgets is this: you don't have to make God love you. Or, for that matter, do you have to make God forgive you. God has already done it through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

    Our task as Christians is to do the work of Christ -- both in word and in deed -- and to remember that all of our deeds, good bad, or indifferent, fall short of God and need the covering of God's forgiveness. We grow in relationship with God and to Christ through active faith, not through intense worry over whether our actions or thoughts or prayers or whatever are "good enough."

    You are forgiven. You are justified. The journey you and I are on now is one of sanctification, where we learn more about God and grow in relationship. This isn't a task where we eventually become sin-free and "good enough" to get into Heaven. It's a process where we, forgiven sinners in need of forgiveness, understand the actions and motivations and intentions behind the active work of Christ on earth, and join where we are called and able, thus becoming one with Christ's Body and His Spirit.
     
  3. Perry Reid

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    First things first:

    I don't know who the guy Wilkerson is, but its possible that he is just another denominational fraud.

    Second, what do you consider to be sins? The reason I ask is because some people are under the false impression that everything they think or say or do is sin. They believe the old lie that the body is evil. This is called original sin. It is a lie. The body is not evil. This lie first came about in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve had their eyes opened. They were ashamed of their nakedness for no reason. They were accusing God of making something evil, their bodies. No, they didn't outright say this to God but this is what was happening in an operational sense.

    Third. How were you "saved"? Did you put your trust in some prayer or "experience"?
    Or did you follow the biblical route of being immersed in water after a confession of faith in Christ to pardon you in doing so? Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Col 2:12.
     
  4. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    waitwaitwaitwait... so if someone isn't (a) immersed, and (b) after profession of faith, they aren't going to heaven?

    Preposterous.
     
  5. music4Him

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    xDx~
    John 3:16-20
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Now ask yourself...
    Do I believe on Jesus? (yes or no)
    Do I hate evil? (yes or no)
    Do I want to do what is right? (yes or no)

    If you answered yes to these you are on the right path. BTW, are you still pretty new in your salvation and walk with the Lord? I will tell you that the devil will attack you and always make you feel as if you are messing up or just not good enough. until you start putting you foot down and tell old satan what the bible says who you are in Christ. Just trust Jesus and His word. :thumbsup:
    Rom 8:1-2
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Tell old slooth foot you are free, because who the Son sets free is free indeed!
    BTW, if you get a book like the one you are reading and you get confused... put it down and read the bible. Or if there is something you want to know about get a "Topical Bible" or a "Strongs Concordance" and look up words that are appropiate. I downloaded a thing called e-sword and all but the topical bible it is pretty good at helping me find scripture on certian subjects. Even has the Greek and Hebrew meaning of a word if I click on the word parallel.
    Also before reading you might pray and ask the Lord to give you wisdom to understand what you are reading.
    (*See James 1:5) These are just tips that have been passed down from others to me and they seemed to help this little Texas gal.

    BTW, JMHO... Some of these people who write these books seem to confuse people more then help them.

    Also... hows is the weather in Germany? My sister and brother in law and nephew are visiting my other sister and brother in law over there in Landstuhl close to hospital where they take the wounded from the war. This is the first time over there for them.
     
  6. Perry Reid

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    Are you saying that a person can get his sin remitted without being baptized? And if so, what verses do you have?
    I got these:
    Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Col 2:12.

    I got a few more as well.

    A person has to believe, repent AND be baptized. Grace, faith, confession, repentace and baptism are not exclusive to one another.
     
  7. genesis12

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    No, it means that the person who wrote that analysis didn't understand the scripture he or she was reading. That portion which reads "who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit," is emphatic, not conditional. The emphasis is on God's sustaining grace, not the ability of the individual to live free from sin. That is the essence of God's amazing grace!:praise: Hallelujah!
     
  8. Eric B

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    And also, if you look at the whole context of the entire book of Romans, "the flesh" was referring the the Jews' claims of salvation by the Law through physical inheritance (hence, flesh). Everyone sinned, but anyone who trusts in their own keeping of the Law, of physical inheritance or anything like that, is still in their sins, whether they have mastered the so-called "sins of the flesh" or not. And many teachers, as much as they sprak of "the flesh" seem to have fallen tight into that trap.

    Once again, if anyone wonders why zdisciplex is asking so many questions, it is understandable, with all the teachings men come up with. :( It's truly amazing that anyone can understand the Bible with all the interpretations put on it.
     
  9. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Oh boy...
    this is really great. No matter what I do is wrong. I am so tired of this. I thought I read this book and now I'm more confused than before.
    Everybody says something else.

    @ pizza

    No, this is exactly what he does not say. Wilkerson says if you fight sin in your own strength you are doing the sin of Uzziah, bringing a strange fire to God.

    @ genesis12

    Where do you get this emphatical stuff? I don't know why this is emphatical and not conditional.

    @ perry reid

    I got baptized last year. But I dont think baptizm is necessary to be saved otherwise people which repent on their death bed could not be saved anymore.

    @ music4him

    the weather is bad, it's very cold at the moment.

    @ eric b

    Indeed, I feel like it's impossible to understand anything. Everybody says something different. I'm really tired of this.
     
  10. music4Him

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    XDX~ :flower: Word of advice put that book from Wilkerson about the new covenant down and pick up the bible. :thumbsup:

     
  11. xdisciplex

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    But I thought that this book would help me. :(
    I don't get it. Wilkerson is a well known christian author and preacher. How can he be wrong?
     
  12. tragic_pizza

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    OK, so our salvation is a result of our good works, is it?
     
  13. tragic_pizza

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    Then I am as confused as you are. Wilkerson seems to be arguing that you must do what you are not allowed to do in order to, somehow, find God's favor.

    Put the book down and step away.

    God has already done everything necessary for you to be reconciled to God.

    Our actions which follow, including fellowship, worship, and service, are what sanctify us... that is, draw us closer in fellowshp and relationship to God.

    You can not - can not - do anything which will make God hate you.
     
  14. tragic_pizza

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    Not all well-known Christians, or even well- intending Christians, are right. Even those who are right are not always right.

    Pick up some books by other authors, like Guthrie, Bruce, etc. I especially recommend (if you don't mind heavy reading) "Christian Doctrine" By Shirley Guthrie.
     
  15. genesis12

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    Instead of wallowing in doubt and fear, surrender. :praise: You say you are a Christian in your profile. Believe it! Trust His Word, the Bible, rather than what someone else has written about the Bible or Christianity. In these forums you can ask 10,000 questions and get 10,000 answers. The Truth is in one book, the Bible. It is all you need at this point. After you are settled in your faith, then you can enjoy a commentary without feeling pressured to agree with it 100%, or allowing it to raise a zillion questions. Always measure the commentary against the Bible. Never measure the Bible according to the commentary. The Holy Spirit guides you in all understanding, not folks who write books, and not the folks in these forums.

    Read John 1:11, John 3:16-17, John 14:6, Romans 10:8-13. Read Genesis 1:1, John 1:1-5, Hebrews 1:1-4, 1 John 1:9. Do you own or have access to a hymnal? Read the words to the hymns. Read the impact that Jesus had upon the writers of these hymns.

    Salvation is by the grace of God through faith, the gift of God. Believe that the Bible is true. That's faith. Study the Bible. That's action. In the book of James we read that faith without action is lifeless. Exercise your faith. You can exercise your faith by telling me privately where you are in Germany, or give me privately your E-Mail address or telephone number. One or more of my friends in Germany will contact you, with your permission (are you old enough to give your permission on your own?). If not, check with your parents first. Do you speak German? I have German friends in lots of towns in Germany. The point is, OPEN THE DOOR. LET THE SUNSHINE (SONshine) IN. I'm praying for you! :praise: :Fish:
     
    #15 genesis12, Jun 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2006
  16. Link

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    Wilkerson can be a bit heavy to read or listen to on this kind of topic. Let me encourage you a bit. Stop worrying that if you pray you are trying to be your own priest. Jesus is your High Priest. Pray to the Father in His name.

    If we as Christians sin, I John says that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to forgive us from all unrighteousness.

    As for God taking 'vengence' on us for sin even if we are forgiven, I don't think 'vengence' may be the right word. Of course there are consequences. if someone murders and then gets forgiven by God, do they let him out of jail? I heard Jeffrey Dahmer repented. He still stayed in jail and still got beat up. If a girl gets pregnant and repents of her fornication, she's still pregnant.

    In David's case, he committed adultery and the Lord forgave Him, but God still told him because he did this, that something terrible would happen in his family. sure enough, his own son rebelled against him, and even slept with his concubines for all Israel to know about. (If someone slept with the king's wives/concubines back then, it showed he was the knew boss. Pretty sick since they were his dad's women.)

    Cheer up.

    Peter wrote that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. Think about that for a minute. We have all we need for godliness. Everything you need to live godly is either in you, with you, or in your reach...by faith in Jesus Christ.

    Paul says that sin shall not have dominion over you. Why? For you are not under the law, but under grace. Think about grace. Grace is what EMPOWERED Paul to do more labor than the other apostles. Paul outlabored them, yet not Paul, but the grace that was with him. Grace manifests in spiritual gifts, like raising people from the dead or healing the sick. Romans 5 says grace reigns. By grace God enables people to be or do things they could not be or do otherwise.

    In John 8, Jesus said he who commits sin is the servant of sin. A couple of verses later, he says if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. After reading this, ask yourself, if you are free from sin, are you committing sin. Romans 6-8 is a great passage to read. A key to Romans 7 is reading Romans 8 and understanding that God sets Paul free from the law of sin and death described in chapter 7.


    II Corinthians 10 says that with every temptation, there is a way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

    If you have sinned, a part of our covenant as Christians is that we can confess our sins and be forgiven. Trust in this promise and exercise it. Then, believe God to give you victory over sin. Read the verses about this until you have a positive, hopeful attitude. If the book you have been reading does not help, go back to the word. The Bible is encouraging.
     
  17. xdisciplex

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    This sounds like once Jesus makes you free you no longer sin and if you sin then Jesus has not yet made you free. This is exactly what I don't understand. What do I do when I read such a verse and don't understand it? Then I might think since I sin Jesus has not made me free or should I not even be sinning anymore since I am free? But am I already free or is this something which God first has to do? I might make wrong conclusions and then think that the bible is not correct because I still sin. This is the danger when you misunderstand the bible or don't know how to interpret it.

    @ targic pizza

    No, Wilkerson seems to think that we shall not fight against sin in our own strength cause this means coming to God with strange fire, like I said. He says that we shall go to Jesus who is our highpriest. But does this mean that trying to resist sin angers God? I thought God expects this from us. Shall I not try to resist? Paul also says we shall fight sin unto the blood this sounds like resisting, doesn't it? And now Wilkerson says trying to fight sin in your own strength is the same sin which Uzziah did because it means we want to be our own highpriests. :(
     
  18. tragic_pizza

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    If Wilkerson is saying that he is sadly mistaken.

    "Fighting sin" is not only something we cannot do outside of Christ, it is something we have no desire to do outside of Christ. That is, without the Holy Spirit, sin is an irrelevance in our minds.

    It is my contention that resisting sin pleases God. God, who created us, gives us not only spiritual armor but personal willpower, and I cannot fathom why He would not want both to be employed.
     
  19. tragic_pizza

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    By the way, anyone who does not sin after coming to Christ should be immediately embalmed before they start to smell.
     
  20. Eliyahu

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    Disciple, You posted an Excellent writing!
    You are dealing with the very important part of thoughts and belief.
    I am very sure that God will give you the whole answers if you continue to search in that direction.
    Many people don't dig in that much.
    In the extreme conflicts and agony, you will find the very clear answer from God, which can never be doubtful.

    I can notice God is working very hard inside you!

    Keep up the good search and pursuit continuously!
     

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