I got myself in trouble

John,

There is no break in the text. Paul never says "O.K., this is ALL unrighteousness of men, but now lets talk about these really bad people who suppress God...it says ALL unrighteousness of men. That includes your unrighteousness, and mine. There is no distinction anywhere after that says there is now a different group of people being referred to.

And the text in John 2:1 says that ANYONE who judges, has done the same things. That means if just one Christian has judged others, this cannot mean what you are trying to get it to say. "Judging others" is not the unforgivable sin.

Why? There is NOTHING in the text that would mean that it was referring to an actual stone or metallic figurine. However, eve if it was, this would STILL fit. Mankind did indeed reject their creator, and make all kinds of idols.

Under your interpretation are you saying that a person does not have to worry about God giving them up unless they, themselves, actually fashion a physical idol? What you are saying simply does not logically compute. The idols in question refer to any likeness, whether it is bronze, or in the imagination, or simply a worship of self.

Not at all. Again, read the text. God gave them up to inordinate affections. The word "gar" (as you should know Mr. Greek) is used to give a reason, explanation, or example of what is being spoken of. Paul is using homosexuality as one of the most heinous examples of this "inordinate affection" that God gave mankind up to. Paul is saying "Look, God gave mankind up to horrible lusts; just look at these examples!"

What about adultery? Beastiality? I guess your not "gave up on" for those sins...just homosexuality, right?

 

I think you're better at Greek than this, too. The phrase in 2:1 is paV o krinwn. Now I believe you know that this limits the "whosoever" to the ones judging. It doesn't mean "everyone judges" but "everyone who judges." Sure, everyone judges, but this statement is not saying that.

 

Again, I am afraid you are missing the point. I do not appreciate the condescending comments about my Greek skills. Read what I write, and think about it. You are not understanding what I am saying.

Let me do this in syllogism form, so perhaps you can understand the argument.

Premise #1 "Whosoever" judges, has done the same things as listed in Romans chapter 1.

Premise #2 All the people who do the things in Chapter 1 are "given up."

Premise #3 Everyone has judged others (including me).

Conclusion : Everyone is "given up."

Now, lets take this to another syllogism, and look at it a different way

Premise #1 Whoever "judges" has been "given up."

Premise #2 At least some Christians have judged others.

Premise #3 Christians are saved.

Conclusion: "Given up" cannot mean that a person is eternally lost.

 

Let's get back to the OP. So you believe this is a list in Rom. 1 of all the sins Christians commit? And that God then gives Christians over to their wickedness? I don't see how you get that out of the text. I believe it is a chronicle of how man degrades himself more and more after rejecting God.

The truth is, I believe in total depravity. But I think you're misinterpreting when you say this refers to Christians because of v. 21.

If I get started on idolatry, we'll derail the thread. I believe that most American Christians have never seen real heathen Idolatry, and don't really understand the wickedness and horror of a person bowing down to a physical idol: children praying to a jizo, a child Buddha; a woman who made her dead father her god; ancestor worship; the "Great Buddha" at Kamakura.

You'll have to be more specific about the gar. Which verse?

But you said to Amy that ch. 1 is all about Christian's sins as well as lost people's sins, right? I think it shows a clear progression of man's total depravity, not of the sins of Christians: God reveals Himself to depraved men (not to people saved from their depravity) through natural revelation in vv. 18-20 so that they are without excuse. They then reject that knowledge and turn from God in vv. 21-22. They then become worse and more and more depraved in their sins in 23-25, committing idolatry which is so wicked that it is the first of the Decalogue. God then gives them over to their own depravity in vv. 26-28 so that they do things, committing sins that are not even natural to the normal depraved person. So then they are totally filled with depravity in vv. 29-32, so much so that they not only commit unnatural sins but admire those who do so.

So, I see a clear progression of depravity here. But you see Christians, am I right?

 

I wasn't being condescending. It was meant to be a compliment.

 

Here is your original post, Havensdad. You disagreed with Amy who was saying that ch. 1 does not talk about Christians. Am I not right?

 

As I stated in my earlier post, I am speaking of our state before we come to Christ. Also, in some sense still now, if left to our natural state (which we are not).

I have seen it too. I saw people bowing in front of a giant Buddha in Korea (don't remember what it was called. It was at some big palace...)

But I have also seen that SAME spirit in the girls chasing after and trying to be like Lady Gaga. Even more, nothing is more disgusting than self-worship

Verse 26. It says God gave them up to dishonorable lusts. Then it says "Gar" before both female and male homosexuality. Paul is stating these as examples, not that it encompasses the entire scope of these vile affections.

Not Christians, specifically. All of mankind, before they come to Christ. Putting it this way: the entire Chapter refers to anyone who does not presently belong to Christ. We as Christians are now filled with the Holy Spirit, and are undergoing sanctification, but before Christ changed my heart, absolutely.

Paul is in effect describing the progression of the debasement of mankind. What I am denying, is what Amy (and the venerable Mr. Rodgers) is saying; that these are people now beyond God's grace. Instead, it is referring to all men in their pre Christian state.

 

No. Notice, I did not say Christians. I said Paul is describing the "fall of mankind into depravity." Paul is not teaching (as many people teach this verse is saying) some point where you push things too far, so that you are beyond God's grace.

 

I agree with Amy on this one.

The Greek word for 'reprobate' is the word 'adokimos' and it means rejected, cast away.

I do believe that once one is given over to a reprobate mind, they indeed have proven to cross over one of God's deadlines.

God had revealed Himself to them, but they chose to walk in the lusts of their flesh rather than serve Him. He gave them over in various stages. He did not cut them off immediately. I see this as letting the get as far to the bottom as He could (as the Prodigal of Luke's Gospel did) and because they did not repent and turn to the Father, He rejected them altogether.

 

Yes. Paul is saying that before we come to Christ, we are completely given over to our own lusts and sinful pursuits. He is teaching original sin; that mankind as a whole fell into God hating, sinful, idolatrous pursuits.

This is why the scriptures use the word "slave" to refer to unbelievers. God "gave them up" and now they are slaves to sin, the world, and the devil. Notice what Paul tells Titus(using the same types of terms found in Romans 1, no less..)

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.

 

But he doesn't say reprobate in Titus 3:3

 

The word adokimos is not the word used in Romans 1. It is paradidomi. The same word is used in 1 Corinthians 5, and in context, the PURPOSE of the "giving up" is so that the person "May be saved." This does not jive with what you are saying.

How do you reconcile this view to verse 2:1? Paul says these same things apply to every person who has judged someone else. Have you never judged someone else? I know I have! Are you saying I am not saved?

 

Doesn't say that in Romans 1, either.

 

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Looks like it says reprobate to me.

 

Oops. He DOES use it; however, it is a descriptive term referring to the state of mind, not a permanent thing. Just because someone has a debased mind now, does not mean it is permanently so.

 

Its an adjective, not a verb. They were not "cast away." It is an adjective, saying they have an unregenerate mind, debased mind. The same kind of mind that you and I had before we came to Christ.

 

adikimos is indeed in Romans 1... right after paradidomi.

paradidomi means surrendered or gave over. God surrendered them over to a reprobate mind. He rejected them.