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I got tired of bumping this...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So first you "Claim" that SDAs have to accept Ellen White to join the church - but are "proven wrong".

    Then you "claim" that this information is not on the web and are "proven wrong again".

    Then you ... what??

    Is there ever a point where you just admit what happened - just did happen?... i.e. you are wrong?

    Does a "revisionist history" model have to cloud your approach to every single exchange?


    Or was that your way of saying we are at the end?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Not at all. [​IMG]

    How is something a "doctrine" of your church if it is not a belief necessary for membership?

    Or is it that members are recruited first and informed later?

    Isn't this a little like the Mormons? You know, one doesn't get to find out what they actually believe until you've joined?
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Soooo anyway.

    After ignoring the litany of "once Again proved wrong" our RC brother simply "adds" to his list of errors.

    He "ignores the details" of what has been posted for his next most speculative "claim" that maybe, possibly, hopefully, the Adventists are not telling people what they believe before having them join the church....Forgetting that this has already been addressed - and simply speculating it as "a kind of RC truth" to add to the truths they have already accepted.

    And yet...

    No change.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    So let me get this.

    Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine is a doctrine of the SDA.

    To become a member you must believe the doctrines of the SDA.

    To be a member you don't have to believe that Ellen White is a prophet whose writings are inspired and hold divine authority for doctrine.


    And this makes sense to you? :rolleyes:
     
  5. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob, how is something a "doctrine" of your church but not a "test" for membership?

    Are members of your church free to reject other doctrines?
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "How is it"??

    The "How" is easy. Each person is told exactly what the doctrine is. In the case of 1Cor 12 and "spiritual gifts" if they choose to ignore that doctrine entirely - we typically refuse to Baptize them. If they accept the doctrine itself but reject the fact that Ellen White is an example of someone with one of the gifts of 1Cor 12, we do not make that a sticking point. They are still free to join if they so desire.

    Obviously many do just that - since the entire set of doctrinal studies is done "sola scriptura". There was never a point where they "needed" to accept Ellen White's gift - to "Get" one of the doctrinal statements.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    I believe that the 27 statements do say that White is someone with one of the gifts "is doctrine".

    Why allow this doctrine to be rejected?

    Are there any other doctrines that can be rejected?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So -- "again" that would be "ALL" 27.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    So -- "again" that would be "ALL" 27.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ellen White as prophet is part of the doctrine.

    I guess that I need to rephrase my question.

    Bob, are there parts of any other doctrine that you can reject and still be a memeber?

    Like, can someone drop the Holy Spirit from the Trinity and still be a member?
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of anyone that has been allowed to join the church - while rejecting the doctrine of the trinity - but of course - they don't have to get my blessing before joining - so there might be some local congregation out there on the planet some place that did it.

    In fact - I did not even know there was such a thing as an Adventist that did not accept the Triune God teaching of the Adventist church until I ran across a few on the web a couple of years ago.

    Adventists typically do not hold "yearly reviews" of your membership to see if "you Still accept All 27" - no inquisition - sorry.

    Here are the 2 doctrines you are focused on - this will give you a better shot at them.

    Never let it be said that I did not oblige my critics.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob, that Ellen White is a prophet is doctrine to your churh. But it is not required that one believe in this doctrine to join your church.

    Why?

    What other doctrines of your church may be rejected by one who wants to join your church?
     
  12. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Bob, I do not see any room here for someone who acdepts SDA doctrine, to say that Ellen White can be rejected.

    How can one reject this doctrine of the SDA and still become a memeber?

    Please explain this contradiction to me in the most direct and most simple way that you can.
     
  13. CalvinG

    CalvinG New Member

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    Tryingtounderstand,

    Many Protestant faiths permit members to disagree with them about certain things and yet still remain in fellowship.

    I, for instance, disagree with the Baptist denomination about the appropriateness of using grape juice rather than wine in communion. I don't contend that this is a sin, but I do contend that it is unnecessary to change a longstanding tradition, started by Jesus himself, of using wine at communion in order to help the donimination preserve the general aversion of many of its members for drinking anything with ethanol content. This disagreement is permitted.

    I don't think that an SDA or a Baptist would be a member in good standing or in fellowship if the particular person denied the divinity of Christ, denied the truth of the Gospels, or any number of other things.

    Not all churches are like the Catholic denomination. We don't believe in top-down hierarchy. We don't believe that ordinary human beings, to be constured to include popes, are infallible, or that people can be required to accept that which man adds to Scripture for church membership.

    I'm sure BobRyan will correct me if I have stated this wrongly. We Protestants are allowed by our denominations to be thinking individuals who don't believe everything the church says (while still believing in the truth of Scripture). I realize that this is different from my perception of the Catholic denomination. But it is not any less valid an approach to Christianity.
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Ellen White as prophet and inspired writer is a doctrine of faith with the SDA.

    It is defined as an offical belief of the SDA.

    Which of the Baptist distinctives are you free to reject and still be baptized into a Baptist church?

    I believe that you would say none.

    That is why Bob Ryan is having such a hard time answering my question.

    He can not explain why someone can reject this particular doctrine of the SDA and yet still be admitted into the SDA church.

    I suspect that it has to do with deceiving potential members.

    Few people would agree to the doctrine that Ellen White was a prophet and the her writings are inspired and are divinely authoritative for the formation of doctrine.

    This isn't a matter of wine or grape juice.

    BTW, it's wine. [​IMG]
     
  15. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I have no particular problem with people believing whatever it is they believe, so long as they can defend their belief with substance.

    Saying you believe something without having substantial personal support for the belief, is accepting someone else's beliefs as your own, and that simply don't cut it! I don't think God allows that in the final judgment either. For example, my faith cannot be your faith and your faith cannot be my faith. We each must have our own personal and individual faith in God. If either of us is relying on someone else's faith to save us we miss our own salvation.

    Same thing applies to the demoninational docrines. You can believe whatever wind of doctrine you will, but if you cannot support that doctrine with foundational truth that you personally believe, that doctrine is worthless and must be discarded.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Baptist accept the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. There are "some" that you must accept - but that does not mean that the small set which all must accept to "be baptized" in the first place - are the only doctrines that are taught in the Baptist church.

    You picked a poor example to use as your illustration. The fact is the Adventist are far MORE picky on the set that you must accept - and that are not optional - than the Baptist.

    You are out on a limb on this one.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    Please be so kind as to explain to me why anyone would join a Church founded by a woman believed by (at least the majority of) its members to have the divine gift of prophecy, if they believed she was a phony, or that her Church body as a whole believed was real?

    That sounds to me like trying to be Catholic but denying the authority of the papacy. What would be the point of being Catholic and legitimately so if you rejected the teaching authority? If Ellen G. White was a loon, and I believed this, why in the world would I join the SDA?

    You need to answer that very legitimate question for me, please, because I can't understand it.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well... hmmmm lets think really hard here and see if we can figure that out.

    Oh .. wait! I have it! See Bob? See Bob Post? See Bob not-use Ellen-White-quotes for his "proof"??

    Hmmm maybe there are one or two "just like that" using the Bible alone to make their doctrinal case and paying attention to "the details"!

    yep! That's it!.

    ...
    </font>[/QUOTE]No change.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Unique and distinctive doctrines of the SDA church - are not "we believe in the 1Cor 12 doctrine of spiritual gifts". WE happen to accept them - but that is not what makes us distinct.

    It is the others among the 27 Fundamental Beliefs that are compelling EVEN those who do not accept the gift God gave Ellen White.

    Since none of them rely upon a "Ellen White said" as their "proof" -- those who join are obviously choosing to accept them on a "sola scriptura" basis.

    Then As they look at the history of the Adventist and find that instead of slaughtering opponents or any such thing - what actually happened was that a group of people started the church - and among them was a 16 year old girl in 1844 that went on to receive the gift of prophecy after Oct 22 1844 - they simply accept the history even if they are not convinced hers was the gift of prophecy. ( so they don't drop their Bibles and become atheists - amazingly.)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    That answer seems besides the point. If I am claiming to have a special gift from God, and you don't believe me, why would you join my Church anyway? Even if what I am saying appears in line with your beliefs, if you do not believe that I am truthful when I say I have a gift (or my believers do), why join my Church?
     
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