I Have a Bible Question about the Spirit

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by RedemptionAddiction, Jul 9, 2007.

  1. RedemptionAddiction

    RedemptionAddiction
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    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]I had a question regarding the Holy Spirit. If I could get some scriptural insight on this I would greatly appreciate it. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]When someone gets saved and born again, do they automatically get filled with the Spirit the same way the disciples were on the Day of Pentecost? And what do you make of Acts 8 where the people believed the Gospel, and were baptized in the name of Jesus, but the Spirit had not yet fallen on them? Or Acts 19 were Paul implies by his question to the disciples at Ephesus that it’s possible to believe, and still not have the Spirit?[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Like I said, any scriptural insight on this would be appreciated
    [/FONT]
     
  2. donnA

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    Each believer is given the Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation, through the indwelling Holy Spirit is how we are changed, made new, become more like Jesus, and have the power to resist sin. No one receives the Holy Spirit like on the day of pentecost, because that was first time the Spirit was sent to permanently dwell in believers, the first time can not happen again.
     
  3. Jkdbuck76

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    OP,

    they recieved the Holy Spirit back when Christ breathed on them.


    In Acts, it says that they received POWER.

    There is a difference.
     
  4. Eliyahu

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    To answer your questions, I would explain this way.
    The Fullness of the Holy Spirit is comparative depending on the various stages of the spiritual growth. At the time when any believer is truly born again, he or she experiences the Fullness of the Holy Spirit, the person continuously enjoy the fellowship with the Holy Spirit dwelling in him or her. They are extremely overjoyed forgetting about all the problems on this earth. They believe and hope any problems can be overcome with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. They overlook any sinful nature of themselves as they were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.
    However, as time goes on, the Holy Spirit starts to show certain problems of the believer, then the believer try to overcome it for himself or for herself, then he or she fails in there. As Paul cried in Romans 7:20-25, he or she would cry to God, then he/she will find the Grace from God thru Jesus Christ. They will realize that Jesus died because of such sins too.
    Then the believer will recover the Fullness of the Holy Spirit again.
    In the whole process, the Holy Spirit continues to train the believers.
    I can illustrate it this way as well.
    Before you are born again, you are in the darkness, but you don't realize that you are in such darkness. When the Gospel is preached, you realize that you are in the darkness and in the miserable state. Then you start to feel the need of the Savior and ask God for the help. Then God answers your prayer and the Holy Spirit comes into your heart, normally with the Words of God, informing that your sins were forgiven. You are born again.
    You will be excited to see the Light which may be in the power of 5 watts which may be amazing for the new believer who used to stay in the darkness and quite enough for the room of your heart with the size of 200 sq ft.
    But the Holy Spirit wants to expand the scope of your belief and understanding, then He expands the size of your room to 500 sqft by showing this and that problem and the need to preach the Gospel here and there. Then you will find the Light is never enough and weak to cope with the Darkness of this world- your room, then the Fullness of the Holy Spirit is gone. You find you are hopeless in miserable state with the very small light which is never enough to cope with many problems of yours. You will make another cry to God, then He will replace the bulb with the new one of 30 watts. Then you will feel the Fullness of Holy Spirit again.
    Next time God will expand your scope to the whole house of 2500 sqft and you will have the illumination of 1000 watts so that you may experience another Fullness of the Holy Spirit, the Fullness in much bigger scale.

    In the actual life, the whole process may be more complicated with the realistic difficulties but the simple layout is like that.

    As for Acts 19, the people are rather in the exceptional case as they lived over the two periods, the period of John the Baptist and the acceptance into the period of the Holy Spirit. They may be in the same situation as Cornelius in Acts 10 too.
    Cornelius was Devout, and feared God, giving alms to the people, prayed God always.( Acts 10:1-2) How many born-again believers of today are doing this much? But he didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter preached the Gospel.
    I would say that they ( both Acts 19 and Cornelius) were under the special protection by God as they were ready to accept the Gospel which was proven in their acceptance of the John's Baptism and in Cornelius life. However, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit yet at that time.

    Today, we cannot say that we believe in Jesus but have not received the Holy Spirit yet. If the Holy Spirit guides and leads anyone, then the person is saved. If the person doesn't have the personal relationship with God thru Jesus, his or her belief may be just theoretical which is not based on the life of Jesus or from the inner heart of theirs. When the believers follow the Holy Spirit, they experience the Fullness of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #4 Eliyahu, Jul 9, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2007
  5. BobRyan

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    [/FONT]

    No.

    But they DO get filled with the Holy Spirit similar to the Disciples BEFORE Pentecost.

    [/FONT]

    ditto -- same as above - they had a pre-Pentecost conversion experience.
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
    That is going too far to say "they do not HAVE the Spirit" the context shows this to be more of a reference to the miracle GIFTS of the Spirit.

    IT is not POSSIBLE to come to Christ without the Holy Spirit - see John chapter 3.
     
  6. tamborine lady

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    :type:

    The answer is that in John 20 -21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


    This is what we get when we are saved.

    In Acts 1-8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    As was stated before, there is a difference, in receiving the Holy Ghost, and then in Acts they received power.

    Later on in 1Cor 12-1 Paul expounds on the gifts of the Spirit.

    And before you ask, yes they are still in existance today. They did
    not go away when the last Apostle died.

    Anyone who really believes and asks, and really wants to receive power from on high, can receive it.

    Now everybody duck, here comes the flack attack! :D

    Still working for Jesus.

    Tam




     
  7. DQuixote

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    That's actually very good, Eliyahu. Recommended reading.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Right on! Preach it!:thumbs: :jesus:


    Hmm - have I ever got a thread for you to post on....

    But of course it is a "women beware" thread.

    So on second thought...

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Glen Seeker

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    Why did you drop the second part of Jesus' blessing?



    21
    14 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
    22
    15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
    23
    16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


    He was giving the Apostles the power to forgive sins through the Holy Spirit.
    The same as Orthodox and Catholic Bishops and priests do to this very day.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    There is no example in the entire NT of anyone going to Paul and saying "father forgive me for I have sinned" where the sin is not AGAINST Paul.

    No - not even one.

    The Matt 18 concept of forgiveness grandted by the ENTIRE church in session has to do with public sin -- member against member.
     
  11. Eliyahu

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    You don't notice the tense of the verse 23 which are the present and the perfect, no future tense, which indicates the forgiveness by the Redemption at the Cross.

    This means that any truly born again believers can preach the Gospel of Salvation to the People based on what Jesus Christ has done at the Cross, and the preaching the Salvation is not limited to any job titles.

    You are creating and inserting new words into the sentence to lure the people to follow the Idol Worshipping Priests of Roman Catholic!
     
    #11 Eliyahu, Jul 11, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2007
  12. mman

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    We have two cases in which people were "baptized" with the Holy Spirit in a direct operation by God/Christ.

    The first is in Acts 2, when the Gospel was first preached to the Jews.

    The second is in Acts 10 (& 11), when the Gospel was first preached to the Gentiles.

    These are the only scriptural references to baptism with the Holy Spirit. These were both manifested in the speaking in foreign languages. Neither produced salvation. The apostles names were already written in heaven (Lk 10:20) and Cornelius was to be told words whereby he must be saved. The HS fell on him as Peter began to speak so he had not heard the message yet that would bring him salvation (Acts 11:14-16).

    In every other case, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are only given by the laying on of an Apostle's hands (Acts 8:17-18, Acts 19:6). This was given to baptized believers.

    When the church was in its infancy, it needed those gifts. When it became mature, and had the complete (perfect) written revealed word of God, it put away those childish things (I Cor 13).

    Many people today claim to have the gifts of the Spirit, but they do not. They did not have an apostle lay their hands on them.

    They cannot heal the deaf, raise the dead, cause the blind to see, have knowledge without studying, go to foreign countries and speak languages they have never studied or perform any other miracle.

    God's written word is all sufficient (II Tim 3:16-17, II Pet 1:3). It is complete. The partial gifts such as prophecy, knowledge, and tongues all ceased when the complete word of God was revealved (I Cor 13:8-11). If gifts of the spirit are still here, then obviously the written, complete, word of God is NOT all sufficient and it does not thoroughly equip us. Any prophecy today would either be redundant or new. If redundant, then unnecessary. If new, then to be rejected (Gal 1:6-9).

    At baptism, in water, for the remission of sins, one is placed INTO Christ (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36, Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). In Christ, all spiritual blessing are found (Eph 1:3), salvation is found (II Tim 2:10). In Christ, there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1). When we are in Christ, the Spirit of God and Christ dwells within us (Rom 8:9-11).

    How do you know it's there? God tells us (Rom 8:9-11). If God had not told me, I would not know that my physical body had a spirit (Jas 2:26).

    Therefore, those in Acts 8 and Acts 19 received the Spirit of God and Christ at their baptism in water, however, they did not receive the gifts of the Spirit until an apostle laid their hands on them.
     
  13. tamborine lady

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    Mman said:

    They cannot heal the deaf, raise the dead, cause the blind to see,....
    **********************************
    You are absolutely correct Mman, they cannot heal. But the Holy Spirit working thru them can!

    As for the apostles, I beg to differ.

    Matthew 28-19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:


    The 12 did their job. They passed what they had on learned and did on to others, (like Elijah passed his mantle to Elisha) in the old testament.

    That same process has been going on for centuries. So...... there are Apostles today, and they can do the same things the origional 12 did.

    When they lay hands on you you can be given power from on high, and you can still receive the same power Paul was talking about in:

    1 Cor 14-2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    If no man understands him then he is not speaking a known language, he is speaking mysteries TO GOD! But he is still speaking a language that no one but God undserstands, so it does not have to be a "known" language spoken somewhere in the world.

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam




     
  14. BobRyan

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    We do see Christ saying "your sins are forgiven" but we have no example of any non-God beings doing it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. mman

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    First of all, there are no apostles today. One qualification for an apostle that we read about in the New Testament was to be an eye witness of the risen Jesus.

    First of all, notice Acts 1:20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms,

    "'May his camp become desolate,
    and let there be no one to dwell in it';

    and

    "'Let another take his office.'

    When Judas died, another took his office. He lost his apostleship. When the other apostles died, no one took their place.

    So what were the qualifications to replace Judas? Notice the end of verse 22, "one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

    The last person to see the resurrected Jesus was Paul. I Cor 15:7-9 "Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

    Notice, not "Next of all" but "Last of all". Paul was an apostle with an untimely birth. Why did he say that? He must have been born later than the other apostles. He was not a eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus upon the earth, but received his eyewitness account on the road to Damascus, some time later. He became an apostle, born out of due season, the last to be an eye-witness to the resurrected Jesus.

    Verse 20 of Matt 18 does not require an apostle. We have many cases where the people went everywhere preaching the word (Acts 8:4). That is what Philip did in Acts 8. Philip had the gifts of miracles, but he could not pass that gift along. It took real apostles to come and lay their hands on the people for them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:18).

    Sure, the Holy Spirit has the power to do miracles as demonstrated in the New Testament, however, that is no longer needed. God's word is sufficient. We already have everything that pertains to life and godliness.

    The languages you speak of are not scriptural. In context of I Cor 14, notice: "There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me."

    These were languages of the world. If nobody was there to understand, then 5 words spoken with understanding are better than 10,000 words in a foreign language that nobody understands (vs 19).

    Here is my proof. You (nor any body you call an apostle today) cannot go to a foreign country and preach the gospel to them in a language that you have not learned. You (through the Holy Spirit) cannot heal their deaf, nor make their blind to see, nor raise their dead, nor do any other undeniable miracle. That is the truth, whether you will admit that to yourself or not.

    Here is the irony in those who think they can speak in tongues. Never once have I met or talked with any of them who has been able to use this "gift" to spread the gospel to those in foreign countries or those who only speak foreign languages. None! Nada! Ziltch! Zero!

    Tongues were a sign for unbelievers (I Cor 14:22). If you can preach to unbelievers in their own language, a language in which you have not learned, then that would be a sign. To utter gibberish (as sincere as you may be) in the presence of other "believers" is useless and worth less that 5 words others can understand.
     
  16. tamborine lady

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    Well Mman, I've heard all that before and it still doesn't ring true.

    It is a tired old argument that quite frankly doesn't hold water for me.

    Ephesians 4-11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    Are we all perfected?
    Are we all in unity?
    Are we all speaking the truth in love?

    The answer is no, so we still need and have Apostles, Prophets, , Evangelists and Pastors and Teachers.

    :jesus:

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  17. mman

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    You did not refute anything I said, just dismissed it out of hand because you don't believe it?

    The other scripture that you bring up does not add to your position, rather it detracts from it.

    Let's see what scripture says.

    Here is how it is stated in the ESV: Eph 4:11-16 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

    Here is your delima. If prophets are now receiving direct revelation from God, then is it the same message that has already been delivered or is it a new message.

    If it is the same message, then it is redundant and unnecessary. If it is a new message, then it is to be rejected (Gal 1).

    God's word thoroughly equips us for EVERY good work (II Tim 3:16-17).

    The one faith (Eph 4:5) was ONCE delivered for ALL time (Jude 3). The saints are united in the one faith that was delivered once for all.

    The purpose of miracles was to confirm the word (Mark 16:20) and the word was confirmed (Heb 2:3-4).

    Since the word has been confirmed, is all sufficient, gives us all things that pertain to life and godliness, and was once delivered for all time, then those things needed in the church's childhood can be put away (I Cor 13, Eph 4).

    The above gifts were until they could grow up and speak the truth in love. How could they speak the truth? God's word is truth (Jn 17:17), therefore, when the written word was available, then they could all speak the same truth in love. Then they would no longer be children but mature.

    You have made the claim that there are apostles today, just like in the first century. Have you met one? Can you find one.

    When the apostle Paul was on this earth, he could send a handkerchief or apron that he used to the sick and they would be healed (Acts 19:11-12).

    Would you please send me one of the handkerchiefs of an "apostle" that you claim are around today?
     
  18. tamborine lady

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    First of all, I have no delima. But you seem to. You said:

    Would you please send me one of the handkerchiefs of an "apostle" that you claim are around today?

    Now, I said NOTHING about hadkercheifs! You are putting words in my mouth.

    The reason I did not address your argument, is because I have heard it before. You read scripture and say it means a certain thing. I read scripture and to me it says another thing. You cannot make up things to go along with your own ideas so that what you have been taught will fit.

    So, in your opinion, there are no more Apostles. There are no more Phophets. But we still have Evangelists, Teachers, and Pastors. If 2 are gone, why not the rest.

    Do you believe that the Bible is the "perfect" mentioned in 1st Cor. 13-10?

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  19. mman

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    Tam,

    If two are gone, why not the rest? I think that is a perfectly good question.

    This is a description of what was put into the church to help it mature until the time in which it could grow up and all speak the truth (God's word - Jn 17:17).

    These teachers had the gift of knowledge. They didn't have to study like teachers today. Those who proclaimed the word, had the ability to proclaim truth, even though all truth was not yet recorded in print. They had the ability to perform miracles in order to show that they were who they said they were. Without the written word, you could not know if someone was telling you the truth. If they could perform miracles, then that was confirmation that they were who they said they were.

    The "perfect" in I Cor 13 is absolutely the written word.

    Here it is used in context: I Cor 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

    Perfect (complete) is contrasted with partial. What was partial? Their knowledge and prophecy. Today, our souce of information is complete and all sufficient (II Tim 3:16-17).

    Let me ask you a question. Will knowledge be done away with in heaven or when Jesus returns?

    This says that knowledge will be done away with when that which is complete or perfect comes.

    No, knowledge will not be done away with. The gift of partial knowledge will be done away with when the completed revealed word is available. Why? Because we have the written word that is all sufficient.

    Something you did not answer is, are the revelations today new (and to be rejected (Gal 1)), or are they redundant and therefore unnecessary?

    Do you think that God's word is complete?

    Tongues will cease. The gift of tongues will cease. Everyone, on the day of judgment will confess that Jesus is Lord, therefore, tongues will not cease.

    The short list in Ch 13 is representative of the full list given in Ch 12 of I Cor.

    As for the handkerchief, I know that you did not bring that up. You stated that there are Apostles today just like in the first century. Paul was an apostle. His handkerchief could be sent to heal people.

    If there are apostles today, then send me one of their handkerchiefs and I will tell you if they are really an apostle or a fake.
     
    #19 mman, Jul 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2007
  20. tamborine lady

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    :type:

    Yes, the bible is complete. Nothing should be added to it or taken away.

    However, there are still Prophets today. If what they say does not line up with the Word of God, then it is false.

    Mman said:
    Something you did not answer is, are the revelations today new (and to be rejected (Gal 1)), or are they redundant and therefore unnecessary?

    ***********************************
    Nothing is redundant that is from God. Whether it was spoken 4000 years ago or yesterday.

    Don't you know that the Word is a "living" book? Else how could you continue to learn from it all your life.

    You also said that the Apostles had knowledge because the bible was not written down yet.

    Can you show mw that in the Word of God?

    Peace,

    Tam





     

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