I have a non-believer friend.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by luvnlife33, May 18, 2004.

  1. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    I am going to post several of our conversations in here for you guys to look at. I told him that I don't know enough to explain only the basics. So here it goes....
     
  2. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    THIS IS HIM

    It just makes me mad how the christianity belief is forced on everyone that's not christian. Pledge of allegence, money, everything...This country wasn't founded under christianity, but to flee from religion in general (insert the correct county here) Europe. It bothers me that 'we', as christians, cannot accept people for who they are and what they do/don't believe in.

    Someone said that we shouldn't envy God, but God should envy us, cause we're mortal...Not sure where that came from, but I jsut thought of it.

    Why not push for polytheism (spelling off, but the belief in more than one god)? It was definitely in place long before christianity or monotheism. Seems like the 'right' religion would be the first?!? it's all a belief system. BELIEF system...imagination system...

    "All things believed to be true comes from the imagination."

    And one more thing...The people killing their kids and such. They said that God spoke to them, telling them to do it. Well, everyone thinks they're nuts...WHY? How do you know that your 'God' didn't tell them to do it? Obviously something did. Your path is chosen for you...

    This sounds really bad, but I'm sending it anyway...random thoughts are always the deepest!
     
  3. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    HERE IS ME

    WOW!!! First of all as a Christian I feel compelled to help you. One because you are my friend, two I don't want you to go to hell.
    I definitely wouldn't force it on you and anyone who would is wrong.. You take history books a little too serious - believe none of what you hear and half of what you read.

    Nobody should envy anything or anybody.

    You know James wasn't too far off when he said you are intelligent and that if you read it you would believe it -

    Lets think about it for a second... If you would believe and have faith and be saved you would go to heaven and would have guidance in your life. Any situation you have could be and would be guided my God and you would not suffer from severe mistakes. You would be blessed and as your friend I want that for you.

    Now as far as the psycho mothers that kill their children that is completely unnatural, even the animals protect their young. The devil is allowed by God to roam this earth - and see he
    never messes with people like you - you aren't saved - so he knows you will be with him, so he won't bother you. Now me that is another story - I am saved and I do live a Christian life and am trying to be a Godly woman - but the devil hates it - he tries everyday to get to me - to destroy my marriage - everything you can imagine.

    Your life here is limited - you could die tomorrow and suffer forever, I don't want that for you. When this lifetime is gone you will spend eternity in one place or another - paradise or a pit of fire....
     
  4. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    HIM

    That's such a crock...sorry, but I don't buy the pit of fire thing. It's just too dramatic. hell is just a scare factor to force people to follow and obey. The history books you're talking about, that was back in 8th grade. I took two history classes at college, neither of which were religious studies. I'm just simply stating the FACTS, something that is lacking in the whole heaven/hell thing.

    So what you're saying is that only christians are tempted by the 'devil'? If your life is already planned out for you, then everyone's actions are justified...Who's doing the planning? God? If lives are already planned out, then God already knew that adam and eve were going to eat the forbidden fruit - another stupid story.

    It's hard for me to believe that a supernatural being, one we've never seen or heard, created life. It drives me nuts when someone gets pregnant, and it's a 'gift from god'. No, you had se*...sper* and egg meet and vwaalaa...nothing Godish in there at all...

    If humans were the very first beings on earth, why is there fossils that date trillions of years back? Why is there something called 'evolution'?

    Without religion, however, I think the world would be pretty crazy. Ten commandments = government trying to keep everyone civilized, nothing more. There's similar 'commandments' in all religions, christianity definitely not being the first.

    And the whole soul thing...Assuming we have souls, no one can tell me that animals don't have souls. Try shooting one and listening to hit kick and scream while it takes its last breaths...and the others stand around trying to get it to run away...Whatever deer believe in is what I want to believe in. But since they don't have souls, neither do I...And when they have a litter...is that an act of god too? hmm, I didn't think so. I think that's Mother Nature (a god from another religion)...
     
  5. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    ME

    Jeez.... First of all I will pray for you. Hell is not a scare tactic - if God wanted everyone to force everyone to obey then he could make them - but he gave you a free will - to choose what to do, he wants you to believe in him and worship him but only because YOU DO believe and have faith not because you are made - it wouldn't be genuine.

    I am not saying that only Christians are tempted by the devil, I AM saying that he is more worried about someone like me than someone like you. My life isn't PLANNED out... I have a path that God wants to lead us down, but we have choices that we can make - he wants us to seek him and let him guide us - but he won't make you. God gave Adam and Eve a choice - he didn't FORCE them. They chose to eat the fruit.

    If someone gets pregnant and says that it is a gift from God, then you can believe it is.

    The Ten Commandments are the LAW - thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultry, worship idols, - it's not bull and imagine this world if everyone lived by that. You wouldn't have to carry a gun. The world is crazy - Aids, homosexuals, serial killers, baby killers, cannibals, devil worshipers, etc.

    There are some things that will never be answered in the Bible it says 'we know in part' - we will not know everything until we are there and can ask the questions. I wish that I knew more and could quote scripture off the top of my head to prove what I am saying... however it is now a challenge for me.
     
  6. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    HIM

    Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read...This is a human belief, nothing more nothing less. Have you read the history of the Americas at all, at the time the europeans landed in America? Life was really crappy, most of everyone died of starvation or the plague. Creating their own religion (what most believe to be called christianity now) gave them hope to live. Religion is basically something to fall back on, in my opinion. Religion allows you to talk to yourself without people thinking you're crazy. It makes you feel as if you're better than those who aren't christian, or going to go to heaven. It gives you hope that there's better life after you die, eternal happiness without any worries. It's all about dreams.

    What's the economic status of the people who believe in christrianity? I'd put money, a lot of money, that they're at the bottom (or close to the bottom) of the food chain. Thou shalt not worship idols...isn't 'god' considered an idol?!? Everyone wants to live their life like Jesus, with no sin...well wouldn't he be an idol then? And the whole virgin Mary thing...give me a break. This is at a time with no birth control or any technology...My sister said she got pregnant, but he (her husband now) didn't penetrate...

    Okay, take this perspective..."If you sleep with someone's husband/wife, kill someone or something, or worship anything else than me, after you die, I'm going to make you pay." Everyone has eyes watching them and everyone gets that feeling, but that's called a conscience. nothing more or less than your own common sense. "I can't do anything to you while you're alive and while people are watching, but just wait till you die!" Give me a break.

    Now with everything I've said, I should get struck by a bolt of lightning when I leave, or get electricuted on this POS laptop by your All great and powerful. A burning bush...have we heard of natural gas? Science proves none of the stuff mentioned in the bible is true, for the most part...sure the whole, how did earth become still has lingering questions, but evolution speaks for itself. I'm waiting on another edition of the bible...

    Argh, time to go to work...I have more to say, but not enough time right now...

    This does help the time go by though.

    Oh yeah, does me not believing in your 'system' make me any lesser of a person? less morals?
     
  7. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    ME


    You have issues... ;) I am no better than anyone and Christians are not at the bottom of the food chain. If being a Christian means to be poor, than bring it. I would rather have God who will provide for me - than all the riches in the world and have an emptiness inside. Life has always been crappy, what is the difference now with Aids, cancer, drugs etc. I wish that you knew. It is so simple and you with your education and logical mind are trying to make it a lot harder than it really is.

    God is not an idol, God is God. An idol is money, cars, buddah, etc. Everyone strives to live like Jesus but we will never be him, simply because he was without sin. It is not a dream.
    The virgin Mary is a miracle nothing more nothing less. And actually sperm travels..

    After you die you don't pay for all the sin - its simple if you are saved (meaning that you acknowledge and believe the Christ died on the cross for you and your sins, that you are a sinner, you repent from your sins, and ask Jesus to live in your heart - and you say this with an honest heart, you will be saved) now - if you are not saved and you live to be 99 when you die you will go to hell. God can do a lot of things while you are alive - and the devil can do the same.

    There is an earthly realm (in which we live) a spiritual realm and a heavenly realm. God is not going to strike you with a bolt of lightening, he loves you, as a father loves a son - and all he wants is for you to come to him. You know there is an emptiness that you can't explain,......... and evolution .....puh-lease - you are WAY smarter than that.

    Scientist can't disprove anything in the Bible that is why they don't speak on it too much. Some say everything started from an ameba - (who created that), if we evolved from monkeys or apes why aren't the apes turning into people now? It is simple.... deep down inside you are empty.

    Lets talk about me... a little Linda history... okay I was your average chick.. loved to party... have fun... blah blah blah.. but I always knew something was missing. I didn't become a Christian until I was 26 - now.... not to get real confusing (I just want you to understand the basics) I didn't live right until recently. God has answered all of my prayers, I am a totally different person - a born again Christian...
     
  8. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    HIM

    You said Buddah was an idol...In Buddha's teachings, he says not to worship anyone or anything (though his followers choose to worship him for some odd reason). If that makes him an idol, how's that any different than Jesus? What's with the apes? I feel that humans evolved from 'something', but that animal we evolved from either still exists or is extinct. The whole reason for evolution is to improve one's abilities for survival. Do you not believe in cavemen? Luci? any of that stuff? Seems to me that if there was a true god, everyone in the world would have known. Native Americans, for example, followed the Mother Nature approach (I'm not sure about the term, but it's definitely not the God one). Now how could anyone be born, raised, bred, and die without ever hearing about the 'true' God? Doesn't that seem unfair? Doesn't that sound fishy?

    And Jesus popped up when jerusilum (I can spell :) ) was in great need of a savior. They were in a huge depression, people killing each other in religious wars, etc...and all of a sudden, "Hey look, that dude is our savior!" I don't buy it...Of course, I don't buy any of it...

    The only reason why Christianity still exists today is by pushing the faith on others. If you don't go to church back then, it was proved that the citizens were placed on display in the city using the head/neck and hand restraints...Religion...schmuk
     
  9. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    I am asking for your help Baptist Board - to help me with my friend and his way of thinking.... [​IMG]
     
  10. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    HIM

    Everyone except my father goes to church. I actively participated in church till my senior year in high school (right before moving up here).

    My pops used to go when he was a kid, but doesn't anymore. He goes sometimes now, but not for the religious mumbo-jumbo...he goes to see his grandkids and stuff, when they sing in church or whatever.

    I think I'd only go back to church to look for women or to visit family members at home. "My" church has really been benefitual in my family's lives (not really mine, but grandparents and such). They've seen hard times, and by keeping the faith that when you die, better lies ahead, they find the strength to continue. Sometimes people need a little motivation - most christians = poor. I meant that their standard of living is pretty low, making most of them depressed and such...it's hard to describe, but if I figure out how to say it later, I definitely will.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to swing your beliefs one way or another. Most people are scared to talk about their beliefs cause it's the only thing they 'know'. But when one questions, the answers are too often not found.
     
  11. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    ME

    The only reason that I can't answer all of your questions with some serious scriptures is simply lack of knowledge on my part. The church would be the best place for you to find a woman - a Godly woman would be a blessing in your life... however any Godly woman wouldn't marry an un-Godly man. All Christians are not poor - what denomination is your family? Does standard of living being low mean NO MONEY??

    You could NEVER sway me one way or the other no matter what you tried. I know that God is real and I know that he speaks to me and loves me - This discussion is SOOOOO not over....... I like you too much to see you rot in hell ;-p

    I really want to know what denomination your family is.............
     
  12. luvnlife33

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    Answering my questions with crappy scripture isn't the real answer. I feel that that is just some poet's tongue. Standard of living is basically your cost of living over your total income. For example, $12,000/$30,000 = standard of living. It's the standards at which you can live happily. I'm not saying that only poor people look for god for the answers, but a majority of them do...I think that's why I like this company, cause at the quarterly parties, they don't thank a super natural spirit for M** success; M** thanks its employees...

    Now would I really rot in hell? All that fire, I think I'd turn to ash before I rot. I am really curious to see what's after death. Heaven/hell, reincarnation, semi heaven/hell, or whatever. I've often thought about doing, ya know, just to find out. I'm sure everyone's wondered. I wasn't depressed or anything, just overly curious...but of course, I'm not going to shoot myself or anything dumb...I'll find out eventually (I was younger when I thought about it). I am, though, somewhat eager to see what's on the 'other side'.

    You'd crap if you die and you find out you were practicing the wrong religion, and ended up burning anyway! Wouldn't that be grand. But really, how many different religions exist and are practiced to this day? How do you choose which one is the right one? It just seems that if there was a real religion, EVERYONE would know about it. To this day, I'm sure there is a culture that's never heard of Christianity. Like most people probably haven't heard of Fallahu...

    oh yeah, The branch I attended was Nazarene. I really don't konw what the differences are between the 300+ different branches...all have their own rules/regulations that scream FAKE!
     
  13. luvnlife33

    luvnlife33
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    helloooooooooooooooooo
     
  14. massdak

    massdak
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  15. massdak

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    give the gospel message is all i can tell you.
     
  16. luvnlife33

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    That isn't going to get it with this 'scientific' engineer.... He wants more - and I want to be able to give it to him... I have prayed that God will speak to him through me.....
     
  17. massdak

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    Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    this man doesnt even have a hitorical belief of Christ?

    all you can do is given him the record of Christ crusified, pray that God opens his understanding to the gospel.
     
  18. luvnlife33

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    No... I would say not.
     
  19. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Hello, luvnlife,

    Your friend is all over the map, don't let him lead with his hits or you will just get scattered. ;) Focus on a few essential points instead. Suggestions:

    1. Tell him that we can see from creation that there must be a Creator. (This comes from Rom. 1 but don't refer to it unless he asks). Tell him that order does not come from disorder (but don't get into an evolution debate, just make this point and move on).

    2. Ask him: "Do you believe there is a right and wrong? It seems from what you've said that you do. Where do we get this from? God tells us that he has given us a conscience so we all have a moral sense of right and wrong though we can ignore it." See what he says.

    3. Ask him: "What is your standard for deciding what is good?" See what he says.

    Focus on these things for now. As believers, we know that good comes from God. Our standard is God. People who do not believe in God have not standard and no way to say where good comes from. They try but it doesn't work well. What you should try to do here is not argue or debate, but get him to think. [​IMG] He doesn't even believe in God, so talking about Jesus and hell at this point is not going to get anywhere.

    You may have realized this is a big investment in time, but if you care about this person, you'll ned to do that. You'll learn from this, too, for next time, so don't get discouraged. Pray for him and for yourself and let God use you. If your friend just ends up arguing and is not receptive, then know when to just leave it and pray for him.
     
  20. Michael52

    Michael52
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    Hello luvnlife33

    I read your post the same day. I was intrigued and it started me thinking what you (or I) should do or say in your situation. My thoughts were also somewhat ‘random’ like your friend’s at the time. I hoped someone ‘smarter’ than me would come up with some good advice, which I would be very eager to see myself! The more I thought (and prayed) about it; I figured someone might question what I would come up with. But, since it doesn’t appear you’ve had very many responses, I’ll give it a try – heck maybe I’ll ‘hit’ someone’s button! ;)

    My RANDOM thoughts:

    I’m a ‘scientific engineer type’ myself. I think I understand what and how your friend is thinking. Based on the dialog you supplied, he takes great pride in being rational, reasonable and thoughtful. He is asking the right questions but he really does not have ANY ultimate answers (obviously). The answers he does have are just leading him to MORE questions. This seems to be typical of agnostics/atheists like him. It is easier, for him, to pose all those ‘whys’ to you (and himself). This gets him OFF the hook and puts you ON! You say you are unable to answer him from scripture. I think even if one could give really good scriptural arguments, it does not matter in this instance! If he does not believe in or know God, the bible (to him) is just more circular reasoning! Somehow, he (and God), not you, must begin to answer some questions. He has to stop his circular thinking! This should appeal to his pride in his mental capabilities and objectivity.

    The first and most obvious question to answer is the “God question” (ie the Creator). Until he, even in a limited way, settles this question, he will have no framework with which to answer any others. Some might argue that asking such questions cause people to lose their faith. I think that argument really only applies to people who come to faith without asking ‘any’ questions. Your friend is asking questions and since he is now an agnostic/atheist, he’s only got one direction he can go! If God is Truth (and He is), then when we find truth, we find God. Your friend’s scientific learning and apparent commitment to evolutionism might benefit in focusing his attention if he would remain objective and agree to question his current ‘beliefs’:

    - Why is there ‘anything’?
    - Ok, there is ‘something’ (stars, earth, animals, etc), how did everything get the way it is now?
    - If you say fundamental forces acted in random ways to cause things to evolve to a higher state of order, then the question is why shouldn’t these same fundamental forces and random occurrences just as likely cause things to ‘devolve’?
    - If everything is guided at random by these fundamental forces, aren’t these quite clever seeing how they are currently guiding me to ask these questions?
    - Since I am obviously nothing more than a highly evolved ape, acting with more highly evolved natural instincts, should I be so arrogant as to ‘think’ that I can take credit for anything I ‘think’ when my thinking is due to random fundamental forces?
    - Yes, we are quite at clever at discovering, cataloging, and using the equations that describe these fundamental forces. But, do we have a clue of why they exist, where do they come from and what sustains them?
    -Since you mentioned conscience, I wonder were that came from? If my ‘heart’ for people is really nothing more than the result of blind, random, evolution from some quantum fluctuation, can I really get puffed-up over caring for anyone or anything?
    - If there actually were some super intelligent force behind all we see and think, should I care? Do I owe anything to this force?

    luvnlife33, You may not fully understand questions like these (I not sure I do) but your friend should. If he doesn’t then he hasn’t really explored deeply enough so that his wisdom may match is knowledge. There are books he could read, if he’s really interested. If (when) he comes to the point he is interested in reading the bible, suggest he be sure and read Ecclesiastes. That’s one book that made a huge impression on this rationalist skeptic. Of course, it’s not your responsibility to convince him of anything. Your responsibility is to love your friend and demonstrate the love of Jesus.

    Sorry, if this seems confusing, incoherent or longwinded. Like one of my calculus teachers use to say when she made us solve problems on the chalkboard, “Mr. ‘Michael52’ has gone around the barn.”

    In Christ
    Michael
     

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