I Have a Question about the New Covenant

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by RedemptionAddiction, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. RedemptionAddiction

    RedemptionAddiction
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Are the four gospels part of the New Covenant? Because Hebrews 8:15-17 seems to say that a Covenant is not in effect until the testator is dead and the gospels (for the most part) are about times and events before Jesus died. I have heard people say that the things Jesus said in the Gospels were spoken to Jews under the Old Covenant. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]So I was wondering if you guys know of any scripture that would indicate that the New Covenant was in effect during the time Jesus was still alive, and what scripture do we have to show that Jesus was talking to New Covenant Christians?[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]I’m very curious about this and have been doing a lot of research on it. Any answers would be greatly appreciated.[/FONT]
     
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    Yes.

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]
    [/FONT]


    I think you mean chapter 9.

    It's true, Hebrews 9:16 does give an analogy and say that where a testament (will) is, there must be the death of the person in question before the testament (will) takes effect.

    That's what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John do. They completely reveal the plan to come.

    Just my thinking, but the New Covenant was planned for before God said, "Let there be Light!" The bible says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

    In my opinion, the New Covenant begins to be written in Genesis 3 when God tells satan that although satan will bite at the heel of Jesus, the seed of woman, that Jesus, the Christ will crush the head of satan.

    Also, in my opinion the wheels of the plan for the New Covenant begin to slowly crank and turn the moment that John the Baptist shouts, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!"

    And, I feel that the full force effect of the plan comes into play when Jesus cries out, "It is finished!".

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]
    [/FONT]


    :saint: I think those people need to actually read what Jesus said. Let them start with the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to complete it". Then let them read where he takes several passages from the law and explains how we should really live our lives in regard to those Old Covenant laws.


    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]
    [/FONT]


    How about every single time Jesus said, "Follow Me," to someone? He was inviting them to experience a "new" relationship with God.

    How about every miracle He performed that gave testimony to His authority as Savior, LORD, and Messiah? How about that centurion soldier who testified that he understood authority and he knew that Jesus was authority personified?

    How about when He said, "No man comes to the Father, but by Me"?

    How about every parable he used to teach with that revealed what the Kingdom of God was and how to relate to God and others.

    How about when he chased out the money changers in the Temple, declaring that they had it all wrong? And how many times did he admonish the Pharisees, for their superior attitude that their service to the Old Covenant made them more holy than others?

    All through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus is teaching and preaching and performing miracles all to introduce the New Covenant in a clear and precise manner.
     
    #2 Scarlett O., Jun 1, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The new Covenant is fully active in the OT!

    In Jer 31 we see the New Covenant stated.

    In the OT we see the saints praying DIRECTLY to God without priest OR sacrifice!! (See Dan 9:1-5 as one of the many examples).

    In the OT we see forgiveness FULL and complete and saints taken directly to heaven (Enoch, Elijah)

    We also see those like Moses IN HEAVEN prior to the death of Christ (see Matt 17).

    Christ states repeatedly in the Gospels "your sins ARE forgiven".

    In Heb 4:1-2 we see the plain fact "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM ALSO".

    in Gal 3:7 we find that the Gospel was preached to Abraham.

    In Gal 1:6-11 we find that there is ONLY ONE GOSPEL in all of time!!

    In John 3 Christ tells Nicodemus that any serious Bible teacher (teaching OT truth) in Israel MUST ALREADY KNOW that they must be born again to enter heaven!!

    In 1Cor 10 we are told that they were ALL baptized into Christ - through that one spiritual rock which WAS Christ!!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jun 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2007
  4. RedemptionAddiction

    RedemptionAddiction
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heb 10:16-18
    16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    17: And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    18: Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    So, BobRyan, you said

    "The new Covenant is fully active in the OT!"

    Well, according to the scripture I stated, part of the New Covenant is a remission of sins. And also according to the scripture I quoted, a remission of sins means there is no more offering made for sin . . . So if the New Covenant was active in the OT . . . Why where people still commanded to make offering for their sin?

    Just wondering . . .
     
  5. DQuixote

    DQuixote
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2006
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    0
    RA, go to your Christian bookstore, buy or order a copy of "Dispensationalism" by Charles Ryrie. You can also order it online at Amazon.com. It's not an exhaustive read ~ available in soft cover, 220 pages. Skip chapters 9, 10, and 11 the first time through. You can pick them up later.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The New Covenant is the ONE AND ONLY Gospel of the Bible (Heb 8 and Gal 1:6-11 make that clear).

    The New Covenant STARTS when Adam falls and goes on to the 2nd coming. It is the ONLY way by which Enoch, Moses and Elijah entered heaven in the O.T.

    It is the ONLY means of forgiveness.

    It offers CHRIST ALONE as the only means of salvation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Heb 7-10 Paul makes the argument that Christ is the REAl -- true high priest for mankind - and the one and only sacrifice for mankind.

    When we see Enoch taken directly to heaven as in Heb 11 it is through "Christ alone" it is "by faith alone" according to Heb 11. ALL the saints of HEB 11 are SHOWN to be examples for us according to Hebrews.

    There is no "They got to heaven some other way" in the text.

    Hebrews is simply making the point that the blood of Christ ALONE accomplished all of this.

    ONE GOSPEL in ALL of time Gal 1:6-11 and that Gospel is the New Covenant.

    As Heb 10 points out - the blood of bulls and goats had no effect at ALL upon sin - they simply were a visual reminder of the blood of Christ applied to each sin as each person came to God for forgiveness. Notice that in Dan 9 we see one of the many examples of prayer directly to God FOR forgiveness WITHOUT priest or sacrifice!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. RedemptionAddiction

    RedemptionAddiction
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Alright thanks
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hmm - that went well.:jesus:

    (That almost never happens).:type:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    So then " have faith in Christ" is the same as "be born again"? It is not two seperate things that one must do in order to enter heaven?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    A person does not "make themselves born again" -- God does that once we choose faith in Christ.
     
  12. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    So one needs faith plus God's regeneration to enter heaven? Is that really "faith alone"?

    Is it one's faith that calls God into action to regenerate them? Is this instant-at the moment one believes, or must one pray first, or ask for regeneration first, or promise to obey first, or stop sinning first?

    God Bless!
     
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 15:
    16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Be careful not to miss the sovereignty of God, be careful not to emphasize the human efforts and works.
     
  14. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Yes, God is first in all things, but even though God chooses us do we not in return have to choose God? Judas was also chosen, yet he chose to reject God's invitation, correct?

    God Bless!
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    "Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone OPENS the door I WILL come in and fellowship with him - and he with Me" Rev 3.

    "Christ is the LIGHT that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY man" john 1.

    "He convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    "God is calling ALL men everywhere to repent".

    ... I know you agree with this -- but the point is that while the Gospel system has God as the "first cause" it does not set him in the Calvinist mode of arbitrarily selecting out the FEW of Matt 7 to be saved and not caring about the rest.

    So he knocks BUT does NOT take down the door!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let me toss a coin to determine if I should believe in Jesus? Don't think so. Belief is the conclusion of data analysis or based on an experience. God going to send people to Hell because they incorrectly analyzed the available historical data about Jesus?
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    God "Says" HE "Convicts the WORLD" of sin and righeousness and judgment and Romans 1 flatly states "they ARE without excuse" who reject Him for His invisible attributes are "clearly seen".

    Others claim that God's convicting is 'defective' and does not allow some people to actually come to the right understanding to be saved. It is the light that coming into the world "enlightens just a few" in their POV

    Two opposing views of God in my opinion.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    The four gospels should be looked at as an introduction of the Messiah to Israel, to establish HIS Kingdom. After Israel's rejection of their Messiah, Paul is charged with a totally new mission, hid in the Father, that is to abolish the enmity between Jew and Gentile, and establish a saving faith that is based solely on Christ's FINISHED work on the cross. Paul states simply, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved. John puts it this way:
    John 1:12, and 1John 3:23, 5:13 Under the Mosaic Law, as Peter had learned and preached, you must repent and be Baptised for the remission of sin.
    Mat 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15, 6:12 Both these programs had different ends also. The Jewish believer was to (and still will) inherit the Kingdom church, and we believers today go to heaven.

    Our confusion with these different plans, or dispensations, is that there was a period of time for the change to take place, where elements of both plans were in evidence. This was man's doing, not God's. The Jews didn't take it sitting down, even to this day.

    So no the four gospels are logically at the end of the old covenant, and pertain strictly to Israel.
     
    #18 hillclimber1, Jun 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2007
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    So one is the Gospel and one is not -- fine. Then what is Heb 11 about? what Gospel saved the saints of Heb 11?

    In fact - just "How many" Gospels does your view have??

    As for Paul = he only knew of one IN ALL of time Gal 1:6-11 and HE said that the ONE Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7 -- in fact He stated "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:1.

    I am going to have to go with Paul on this one.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. MrJim

    MrJim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    One thing to consider is that it is a New covenant. Things are done different now. We don't have to become "jewish" so to speak to enter that covenant. We aren't called to circumcise our boys or stone sinners or butcher sheep or not eat bacon or the myriad of other laws which we can't keep anyhow.

    Thank God we are no longer there. The gospels are superior to leviticus/deuteronomy~~grace is better law.

    Amongst the anabaptists the scriptures are viewed Christocentrically-that is to start in the Gospels and interpret everything else from there-it is the epicenter of time. Whether turning to the epistles or to the prophets view all through Christ and what he taught.

    Yeah, that ain't a dispy view, but I ain't much of one anyhow. We talk of reading scripture alone, but then read it through the lens of our favorite theological teaching. Reading scripture through Walvoord or Pentecost is no different than reading it through RC Catechism or Westminster Confession-just manmade teaching creations in which to sift scripture.

    Have a great Lord's Day and Father's Day:godisgood:
     

Share This Page

Loading...