I Heard An Agnostic Ask These Questions...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kiriath_jearim, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. kiriath_jearim

    kiriath_jearim
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    I overheard a conversation between an agnostic and a Christian. The agnostic asked some questions, but a couple of them stood out in my mind:

    1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?

    2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?
     
  2. webdog

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    Was he talking to a calvinist?
     
  3. whatever

    whatever
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    How would the non-Calvinist answer?
     
  4. webdog

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    "Ask a calvinist" [​IMG]
     
  5. James Flagg

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    Sounds like the old "problem of evil" from Philosophy 101.

    Dig around on the internet and you'll find every conceivable rationalization and maybe even a good answer or two. ;)
     
  6. Me4Him

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    Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", there's no excuse for anyone "HAVING" to go to hell for their sins.


    God has no pleasure in people going to hell, the reason Jesus died for all sins,

    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    God doesn't want anyone in heaven who doesn't want to be there, or who hasn't "CHOSE" to be there, Man/Angel,

    He could have created "robots" with no "CHOICE" except their "programming", but "LOVE" can't exist in that state,

    like Grace, "LOVE" can't be "ordered" from an individual, it's a "FREE WILL CHOICE" of the individual's heart.

    Jesus die for all sins, so it's possible to save as many as were made sinners,


    Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


    Of course if they don't chose to serve God, then they'll get to live with the other "Master" they chose to serve.

    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Any person who goes to hell will have to "climb over the Cross" to get there, it stands as a "barrier" between all men and Hell.
     
  7. genesis12

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    Larry King asks these questions of every Christian on his talk show. He interrupts their answers. His wife is a Mormon, and he is, I think, an agnostic. The next time he has a Christian on, especially Franklin Graham, tune in. You might tell the agnostic you overheard that he is going to find out what the answers to those questions are ~~ while inviting him to get to know the One who came to save that which was lost.
     
  8. JackRUS

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    LOL, that was my first thought.
     
  9. whatever

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    OK, since you asked, here's how a non-Calvinist would answer these questions.
    A non-Calvinist would answer in one of the following ways, in order of decreasing likelyhood:

    1. He would pretend that the questions did not exist.
    2. He would answer a different question.
    3. He would deny God's foreknowledge.
    4. He would become a Calvinist.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. bapmom

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    whatever,

    actually, a non-Calvinist did answer those questions (Me 4Him) up above and his answers did not look anything like yours.

    hmm.
     
  11. whatever

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    Well, I was actually half-kidding in my reply to webdog.

    But I just read Me4Him's answers, and I have to say that I think he really did not address the point of the questions. That's what I was getting at with #2. If God knew that in spite of all that He did some people would not believe and be saved then why did He create them anyway? Why is it better for God to create them knowing that they would never choose him on their own, than it would have been to not create them at all? Is having some people choose Him "freely" really worth having other people tormented forever? Why didn't he just create the ones who would freely choose Him?
     
  12. npetreley

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    Okay, let's just get this out of the way. Here are the Calvinist answers (according to non-Calvinists):

    1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?

    Because the Calvinist God is cruel and hateful and doesn't want man to get a fair chance at heaven.

    2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?

    Because it glorifies God when everyone can see him up in heaven wringing his hands in glee at the pain and suffering of all those innocent men who didn't get a fair chance at choosing heaven over hell. God gets no end of pleasure denying these innocent people what it is they truly wanted, and that is to love Jesus with all their heart. It's not that they didn't WANT to believe, but God selected certain people that he foreordained to damn to hell and withheld the truth from them so they'd have to suffer.

    Okay? Everyone happy?
     
  13. whatever

    whatever
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    And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
     
  14. Calvibaptist

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    How did this turn into a Calvinism-Arminianism debate? Notice it was a non-Calvinist that did it, please. Back to the original point of the post. How would you answer an AGNOSTIC who asks these questions?
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Anyone interested in how a Calvinist, and the Bible, would answer these questions?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  16. whatever

    whatever
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    You mean actually answer the question? What fun would that be?

    Go for it.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Romans 9:14-21
     
  18. npetreley

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    Okay, some serious answers.

    1. If God is all-merciful, why would He create puny human souls with a sinful nature and punish them forever and ever since they can't help but live in sin?

    First, God is not all-merciful. He has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy.

    Second, God did not create man with a sinful nature. God created Adam and Eve innocent. Adam and Eve disobeyed, and the consequence of their disobedience was spiritual death, which is a condition that has been passed down to all of us, ever since.


    2. Why does God get satisfaction from the eternal suffering of these wretches since He knew from the beginning that they would not believe the Gospel?


    The crux of the matter is that we all deserve eternal suffering. God would be fair and righteous if He never provided a way for anyone to escape this fate. Whether or not God gets any sense of satisfaction from the eternal suffering of people who deserve eternal suffering is something I cannot answer.

    The question is, why did God permit this to happen, since He must have known in advance it would happen. On this I can only speculate, but my speculation is backed up by what Paul says in Romans. God did it to make His attributes known. His attributes include love, mercy, righteousness, wrath against unrighteousness, and more. God could not make all of these attributes known without having objects of wrath.

    So (I continue to speculate), He allowed Adam and Eve to disobey, causing the fall of the human race. After that, He provided a propitiation for sins, and called out a chosen people to receive mercy, while allowing some of the reprobate to continue in their sin, eventually to be punished. By doing all this, He displays all of the above attributes and more.
     
  19. Timtoolman

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. Timtoolman

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    Anyone interested in how a Calvinist, and the Bible, would answer these questions?

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE]I pick how the bible would answer the question.

    ;) [​IMG]
     

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