I John 1:9 Protestant Confessional?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by trustitl, Apr 26, 2008.

  1. trustitl

    trustitl
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    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

    Catholics get a bad rap among most evangelical Christians for habitually sinning and going to get forgiven by the priest at confessional. What is the difference between these Catholics and Baptists who go to revivals and hear the above verse and go down the aisle to confess their sins?

    Is this verse being misused to give a false assurance?

    Does a believer need to confess his sins in order to receive forgiveness?
     
  2. webdog

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    Confessing our sins to God...and confessing our sins to a priest is apples and oranges...no...make that grapes to watermelons.
     
  3. trustitl

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    No argument here, but beyond that, does a believer need to confess his sins to be forgiven?
     
  4. Zenas

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    Yes. Otherwise why is this verse in our Bible? When we are saved, our sins are not forgiven past, present and future. But the act of confession and seeking forgiveness results in forgiveness whenever we ask.
     
  5. DHK

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    Forgiveness for what purpose?
    Forgiveness for the purpose of salvation? Absolutely NOT.
    All of our (believer's) sins are under the blood never to be remembered again. They are already forgiven.

    Forgiven for the purpose of renewed fellowship with God? Yes, Absolutely. That is what the verse is speaking about--fellowship. Sin separates the believer from God.

    Psalm 66:18--If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me.
    --For the believer to continue to have a right relationship with the Lord, he must confess his sin. His eternal salvation will not be affected; only his fellowship with God.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Would you happen to have a Scripture for that deduction?
     
  7. DHK

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    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    It is quite evident from the personal pronouns used in the verse that John was not only writing to believers, he was including himself. John was not an unsaved man. He did not expect to find himself in hell. Salvation to John was eternal, and nothing less than eternal. John could just have easily written:
    "If I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me my sins, and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness."

    In fact that is what he did say. He just included you and I as well. What else did John say:

    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    --John had the Son. He had eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    --John knew he had eternal life and he wanted to make sure his readers had eternal life as well. Eternal life came by believing in Christ, not by confessing sins. Salvation never comes by confessing sins. There is no such teaching in the Bible.

    But we must confess our sins to maintain our fellowship on a daily basis with Him.
     
  8. TCGreek

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    Why HP objected to this, I cannot understand?

    The context of 1 John 1 is clear about v.9.
     
  9. Rippon

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    To quote myself from another thread :" That's like comparing apples to artichokes."
     
  10. The Scribe

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    Yes, everyone has to ask for forgives. But, not to a man in a booth.

    Jesus forgave a murderer, Saul (Paul), and made him one of his disciples.

    Don't you think if Paul had started killing again he would have to ask to be forgiven again? Also, Jesus told the women at the well to, "Go ye and sin no more."

    Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
    1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
     
  11. trustitl

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    I am finding some interesting responses here.

    Can someone who is advocating that this verse is talking about fellowship with God please explain how they came to that conclusion. Make sure that you point out how a person can not have their sins forgiven and not be cleansed from unrighteousness as the verse says, and still get to have their "eternal security".

    And on the other side of the coin, HP is going to have to convince us that being able to confess every sin that a believer commits is a necessary condition to maintain one's salvation.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

    HP: Would you happen to have a Scripture for that deduction?

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




    HP: Would you consider what you have presented as ‘sola scriptura’?
     
  13. DHK

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    Yes it is. I have not presented anything outside of Scripture. But I could have presented more Scripture. There are many other Scriptures that deal with this topic. Also I was thinking of posting a more detailed post simply explaining the context of the verse in more depth, showing how there is no possibe way that 1John 1:9 can refer to anything but a believer's fellowship with God.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    DHK: Also I was thinking of posting a more detailed post simply explaining the context of the verse in more depth, showing how there is no possibe way that 1John 1:9 can refer to anything but a believer's fellowship with God.

    HP: I am listening.:)
     
  15. DHK

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    Let's start quite a bit further up and make sure of the context:

    1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    In this paragraph it is evident that the context is fellowship. Our fellowship with God is based on Christ, that God is light, and that we walk in that light.
    Our fellowship with one another is also based on the same thing, and both is based on the fact that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Both fellowship with God and fellowship with other believers is conditioned on the fact that our sins have been covered by the blood. Because we have been saved we can have fellowship with one another.
    Because we have been saved we can have fellowship with God.
    1John 1:9 has nothing to do with salvation, but everything to do with fellowship.

    The next paragraph:
    1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Again writing to believer John asserts that if any believer claims that if he has no sin he: deceives himself, the truth is not in him, he makes Christ a liar, and God's Word is not in him. That is quite a charge for the one that claims that he can live without sin or even come to the place of sinless perfection. Notice also that John is very personal here, using the first person pronoun. He includes himself, thus indicating he is writing to believers.

    Thus in this context of writing to believers there is no possible way he could that verse 9 could be speaking of salvation. He is speaking of fellowship not salvation. He is speaking of fellowship that needs to be restored when the believer sins. Anyone foolish enough to claim that he has not sinned is a fool enough to call Christ a liar, and thus the Word is not in him. A true believer recognizes his sin; his unworthiness to stand in the presence of a holy and just God, his sin that needs to be forgiven on a daily basis; and yet at the same time the blessed promise of knowing that his sins are forgiven for all eternity.
     
    #15 DHK, Apr 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2008
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Let me start with this distinction you make between salvation and fellowship. You seem to clearly imply that we can be devoid of fellowship with God and yet be in a state of salvation. You are simply inserting an unfounded presupposition by aligning the interpretation you set forth of the text to be consistent, not with the Scripture itself (for it makes no such distinction,) but rather with your presupposition of OSAS.

    Please do not take quick offense at my remarks. What I am saying is that before you simply assume that one can be devoid of fellowship with God and at one and the same time be certain of ones eternal standing with God, your obligation to truth is first to establish this point by Scripture, which so far you have done no such thing. You simply beg the question, setting it forth as fact without establishing its validity from the Word of God.

    I maintain that to be saved is to be in fellowship with God, and to be out of fellowship with God is to run the risk of finding oneself outside of the Kingdom at the final judgment. I would set forth the following Scriptures as clear evidence of this being the case.


    1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  17. DHK

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    The Bible clearly teaches that when one is saved they become a child of God (John 3:3; 1:12). We are adopted into his family at the time of our salvation. He will not kick us out. We cannot be "unborn." Now, having said that let's compare the first chapter of 1John with Hebrews 12.

    Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    --If you are a child (son), and are disobedient, you will not lose your salvation. You will not lose your status of being a son. But the Lord will chasten or discipline you. That affects your fellowship with God. The picture is represented here as the relationship between a father and his son.
    If my son disobeys me he continues to be my son. I will never disown him. No matter what I do I cannot change the fact that he will always be my son. But if he rebels against my authority the relationship will change and our fellowship will be broken. Not until reconciliation is made; confession of sin and repentance with restoration, can that fellowship take place again. The fellowship with the father can then be restored once again.
    So it is with the Heavenly Father.
    We will always be the children of our Heavenly Father; He will never disown us. We can never lose our salvation.
    But sin can destroy our relationship with him. It separates us from him. Until we confess that sin our fellowship cannot be restored, though we will always be his children.

    Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    --Again see the father/son relationship and how the Father deals with His children. Sin severs the fellowship of his children from the Father.
    Hebrews 12 is very clear on this matter, as is other Scripture as well.

    Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    --If you do not endure chastening from the Lord perhaps you are not really saved in the first place.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    --Becoming a child of God is as easy as believing in Christ, and receiving Him as your Saviour.

    The Bible teaches no such concept.

    This entire chapter is addressed to Christians as we have noted many times. John was a believer, was he not? If we say... John is including himself. Are you suggesting that John was not saved? Then the passage must be addressed to believers, and speaking of fellowship and not salvation.
    And this verse is speaking of the unsaved--an entirely different context then the first chapter of 1John. What is your point?
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Here again you beg the question. You state that “He will not kick us out. We cannot be "unborn." You assume without proof at every turn this presupposition of OSAS. Show us from the text where it states what you claim. Your next verse you mention you do the exact same thing.



    HP: Yes, the picture is that of a father and a son, but what gives one the authority to tell us that the particular nuance of an earthly father/son relationship must of necessity apply to our relationship with our Heavenly Father as born again children?

    Let’s try and expound for a minute on this necessitated consequence you say MUST apply. For instance, why can we not conclude that because one had no choice whatsoever in being a son of a particular earthly father, that one can have absolutely nothing to do to be a son of our Heavenly Father? That would exclude automatically any notion whatsoever of man’s choice having anything whatsoever to do with choosing or rejecting Christ, would it not? Why could not one be assured that all men, being children of God, are universally children and as such eternally secure, for you know, once a son always a son, right? Are we to suppose hell is just some kind of discipline afforded His children? Why not? I was born into this world a child of God, just as I was born into this world a child of my earthly father. If I am to use your logic of ‘once a son always a son’ universalism reigns and hell is a mere figment of ones delusional aberration of truth. I was born in fellowship with my father. To assume that such could be broken by eternal torment is absolutely contrary to once a son and in fellowship, always a son and treated so without regard to my disobedience or obedience for that matter.

    The truth is that there is not a shred of evidence that once a son always a son can be applied to the new birth. An attempt to do so is to try and make an illustration walk on all four legs to support a notion that is otherwise simply unfounded.
     
  19. D28guy

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    EDIT....duplicate post. Sorry....
     
    #19 D28guy, Apr 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2008
  20. D28guy

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    Here are excerpts from an excellant teaching regarding the so very important topic of the believers complete eternal security....through faith in Christ alone.

    Much more can be found here....http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/eternal.htm

    God bless,

    Mike
     

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