I need some proof please.......

Sue,

There really is no scriptural "proof" of this. The only hint that I can think of is when David says he will go to his infant who has died.

Scripture just doesn't really speak to this issue, which is probably best.

 

oops

[ October 19, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Here's a page with a lot of thoughts on the matter of infants who die.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f006.html

I would say that MANY mentally retarded are 'old enough' mentally to make a decision for Christ. We have two middle aged brothers who are in every service. They've asked Jesus into their hearts and been baptized with a 'childlike' faith.

Diane

 

http://www.epm.org/infant.html
Do infants go to heaven when they die?
Answer by Randy Alcorn

 

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(He was pure coming out of the womb. Question: Does God play favorites?) See Also: also: Mat. 18:6 and Isa. 40:11

1 John 2:12

12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

(God forgives little children because --- they know the Father) See Rom. 8:1

Matthew 19:13

13. Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence.

(We must become like a child, innocent and trusting -- see both Mat. above verses and Mark below) See also: Rom. 8:1

Mark 10:13

13. And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].
14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them.

Luke 17:1

1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

(That is to cause them to loose their innocence)

Luke 18:15

15. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

(Infants are innocent as is the kingdom of God) See also: "little children" Mt. 19:14; Mk. 10:15; Lk. 17:2; Mt. 18:6, 10 and "young children" Mk. 10:13.

Matthew 18:6

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

(Jesus says the little ones believe in Him. How do we obtain salvation? Is it not by believing in Jesus?) See also: Rom. 8:1, 10

Matthew 18:10

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(The little ones each have their own angel watching over them)

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

(If you sin you die, if you did not sin you live. You will not go to hell for anything that anyone else did, only for YOUR OWN SINS.) See also: Mt. 5:8; Jer. 1:5; Ex. 32:33; Rev. 3:5; Ezek. 18:4-9; 18:19.

2 Samuel 12:22

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

(David, who was one favored by God for following God and to whom God conversed with, said that he (David) would join his child again. Question: Was David going to hell or heaven?)

Matthew 18:2

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(What does a child have that would cause Jesus to command that we must become like one of them? If a child was automatically going to hell, then why is it necessary to become like a child? A child has Trust, Faith, innocence!) See also: Mt. 5:8; 18:6; Mk. 9:36-37; Lk. 9:48; Rom. 9:12.

Matthew 5:8

8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

(Who can deny that a baby is pure in heart, How has a baby sinned?) See also: Ezek. 18:20.

Luke 1:41

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(Would a soul that is under condemnation, that is dammed to hell, leap for joy at hearing the voice of the mother of Jesus?) See also: Lk. 1:44 below.

Luke 1:44

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Psalms 27:10

10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

Proverbs 4:4

4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

(What baby or little child has broken a commandment?)

Proverbs 8:32

32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed [are they that] keep my ways.

(How has a baby or little child turned from God's ways?)

Isaiah 40:11

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.

(Lambs represent young children.)

Mark 9:36

36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

(If a child is not innocent, then why would Jesus say this?) See also: Lk. 9:48 below and also Rom. 8:1.

Luke 9:48

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

Matthew 21:15

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

(Since when does evil praise God. It never has and never will, so babies and sucklings must be good.) See also Psa. 8:2 below.

Psalms 8:2

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Nehemiah 8:2

2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

( Note here that all those who were not capable of understanding the Word of God was not required to hear the Word of God. This has a very strong implication of accountability.)

1 Kings 15:14

14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

(Would this statement be true if he came out of the womb with sin?) See also: Rom. 8:10.

Jeremiah 49:11

11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve [them] alive; and let thy widows trust in me.

Luke 1:15

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

(The Holy Spirit does not reside inside of a sinner.) See also: Rom 8:10

Psalms 24:3

3. Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

See also: Mk. 9:36-37; Mt. 18:6; Lk. 1:15; 9:48; Jer. 1:5; Isa. 40:11; 1Ki. 15:14; Rom. 9:11; Ex. 32:23; Rev. 3:5.

Psalms 22:29

29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

(The word "keep" here indicates that you are not born with your soul dead. You can not keep something alive if it is already dead and was never alive to start with.)

Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(This is speaking here of God's law, not the law of Moses. What part of God's law have the babies and little children broken?)

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offense, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

(This is speaking about physical death, and not the second death of the soul.)

Numbers 14:28

28 Say unto them, [As truly as] I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But [as for] you, your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness.

( These verses indicate that there is an age of accountability. I do not suggest that such an age is as shown above. But we see here that God did not punish the young ones even though some probably did also murmur against God. Clearly, here an age did play a part in the decision the Israelites made for which God was punishing them. The young people under 20 years of age were not allowed to choose whether to obey God and enter into the land or to Disobey and not enter into the land. If a little child is not able to make a choice, are they to be found guilty? The verse above would say no.)

1 Corinthians 7:14

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

(The children are called holy. Question: Could they be called holy if they were already condemned to hell?)

Romans 9:11

11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

(It says here that an unborn child has not committed evil, or have not sinned. Question: Does God condemn to hell the innocent, those who have not sinned?? There are so many verses that say that He does not. That we are condemned ONLY for what WE do.) See also Deut. 1:39

http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/babys.htm

 

We have a mentally retarded man in our church. And several years ago he was saved and baptized. now he comes ot church every week, always smiling. And has even worked to serve God with a woman who taught learning disabled kids in school and was his teacher. So I know some mentally retarded people are capable of undestanding. But then, God made it easy enough for a child to understand.

 

Does not this idea conflict with the concept of faith in Jesus being necessary for salvation.

If God can let in babies, or the mentally challenged without them accepting Christ, the doesn't that suggest a 'loophole' in salvation?

The bible tells us that ALL have sinned, and also tells us that no-one can get to the father if not through Christ.

How can you say that some people dont need Christ to get to heaven? Are they born sinless? Have they no need for redemption?

-KFC

 

2 Sam 12:18-24a, "But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead; so David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead." So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he came into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate. Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, `Who knows, the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and went in to her and lay with her; and she gave birth to a son, and he named him Solomon.

 

gb93433 , that's all well and good.
But you're taking the words of a grieving, emotional human being as truth off the bat here.

If he's said that about his favourite cat would it make it true??

So David wants to see his child again, fair enough, that's natural. But does God say to David: You will go to your child? No.

I don't think you can use the words that David speaks in his grief as any kind of evidence here.

-KFC

 

God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because
they did not have enough understanding to reject God. -- Deu 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your
children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and
evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall
possess it.

There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL
measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where
understanding is being developed. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall
know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou
abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right
or wrong and are there fore not culpable. Rom 9:11 For the children
being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now,
here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev
20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no
knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have
not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their
lack of understanding?

Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving
and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law
before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could
hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is
necessary for redemption. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned
from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be
upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a
little, and there a little:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and
doeth it not, to him it is sin.


A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

So parts of the bible are not true then?

 

KFC said

It would not be true if it were said of cats. We both know that cats don't go to heaven because they do not have eternal souls...(and if they did cats would certainly not go to heaven...that's a joke ). David however is speaking of a child who does have an eternal soul, so his statement on it is meaningful and does serve as some "kind of evidence". Does it rise to the level of proof positive? No. But it does suggest that the child went to heaven and not to hell. I think that that verse has been a comfort to many who have had children die and I suspect it will continue to be.

 

the curse of God covers everyone. no one escapes those facts. its perfect

allowing babies who havent experienced the same invitation of the Holy Spirit, and receiving of the "new birth" (as required of all believers) is highly unfair and unequal to the rest of the population of the human race..

if babies are allowed to slip through the consequences of the curse via this "illegal loophole", then all should be allowed to enter heaven.

even babies have a cursed spirit and cursed (spirit) body. even if they havent been taught how to think or communicate yet..

Me2

 

How do you figure that?
I'm not saying that David didn't say that.
I'm not saying it didn't happen as the bible said it went down.
But I am saying that David is not God and thus what he says may not necessarily happen.

Look it's perfectly obvious that people want to believe what seems to be the happiest possible outcome.
That children apparently can't sin, that they inherit sin at some unresolved point later in life, contrary to what the bible says about "all have sinned".

If believing that makes you happier then fine.
But I think you'll find the bible disagrees with you.

-KFC

 

If there's so much evidence, why are you asking for more 'proof'.

I mentioned the passage (paraphrased) "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
You seem to think the encompassing "all" that the bible gives is actually a subset including only some, or most of humanity.

I also mentioned Jesus saying "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

You argue that there are some that don't need to be forgiven of their sins in order to reach heaven.

I have not listed mere 'opinions'. All mankind sin, all deserve hell, it is by Gods grace that any achieve heaven.

You seem to believe instead that all deserve heaven until they get old enough to be held accountable for their sins.

Now is that biblical??? Or simply your opinion?

-KFC

 

I have stated before and will again say it. EVERYONE, including infants, are born in sin and trespasses and merit hell on that basis. That is the clear teaching of scripture..For ALL have sinned and come short of teh glory of God. All we need do to go to hell is NOTHING. The sentence is passed by the Judge.

When it comes to infants and children and the mentally handicapped, I BELIEVE, it is a personal whim, that God provides a special grace to cover their sin. Do I have scripture to support this? Unequivically NO. I can quote David when he said he would see this dead infant in glory. Was he speaking God's mind at the time? That is open to debate. Because it is in the word, I must ask why? My conjecture is to give us comfort in this concept, that such are covered by the blood of Jesus and the mercy of God.

We sometimes call it the age of accountability, and we have debated what that is. It must be an act of God, and the penalty for sin satisfied.

I rest in the mercy and nature of God, and the frequent passages which gives children a special place in the heart of Jesus throughout the gospels.

Cheers,

Jim