I think John 9:39-41 says it all...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    ...

    John 9:39-41 -- "39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." Calvinists, like the Pharisees, claim to "see" before they believe -- regeneration before knowing anything to have faith in or repent of. But Jesus says if you say you see (spiritual things while your fellows, the non-elect, cannot), you are blind. But if you will come to Jesus blind, you will see.

    40 And some of the [Calvinists :eek:] which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

    41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." Calvinists have said time and again that their eyes were opened before they even heard the word of God or the gospel --- they somehow didn't need any change, any healing, before they could understand spiritual truth. Jesus simple answer to that is, "I can't save you. Come back when you realize you are blinded by sin and by men's (the Pharisees) theologies."

    Free willers, on the other hand, came blind to Jesus. But when we obeyed His command to believe and receive, then we, indeed, did see! (read 1Cor 2 again folks).

    Is anyone offended yet? Tell me you were just as blind as the rest of us unregenerate sinners before you heard the word, the gospel of your salvation! Don't go flaunting your sight was why you were saved and the next man not. Jesus said that if you claimed to see then, then you are blind still.

    I don't like to keep harping on this issue but don't you see that it is contrary to salvation to claim regeneration before you repent. It basically puts you into the embarrassing situation of having only "sorrow of the world," 2Cor 7:10.

    1Cor 4:14 -- "I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers..." In fact, you have only One Father and He speaks quite well for Himself.

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Nov 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  2. Watchman

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    While opposed to Calvinism, I feel that this is an unfair and inaccurate comparison. Pharisees felt they were God's special people because they had Abraham as their father and they adhered to certain rules, many of which they invented. Calvinists believe, if I understand correctly, that it is all a matter of grace and they are saved by faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus. The Pharisee's faith was self and works centered, Calvinist's faith is Christ centered. Big difference.
     
  3. reformedbeliever

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    What a poor analogy sky. You really slapped yourself in the face with this one. It is the non cal who says they see (believe) and then God regenerates them. Calvinist believe we are blind until he opens our eyes (regeneration) to see. :laugh:

    I do like your analogy however....... just replace a few words here and there..... lol
     
  4. Amy.G

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    How can anyone obey Christ when they are dead in sin? We are all blind until God opens the eyes of our hearts. God must reveal Himself and open your eyes before you are able to obey. Up until that point, you are in the flesh, the natural man.


    1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
     
  5. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I asked you this yesterday in another thread.
    May I ask approximately how old you are and what pastors, teachers and authors have influenced your views?
     
  6. reformedbeliever

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    I agree Sky.... John 9:39-41 says it all. You couldn't have chosen much better Scripture for the cause of Sovereign Grace. Thank you. Have a great weekend!
     
  7. webdog

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    Are the Words of Christ that powerless that the spiritually dead cannot obey Christ? Dead in sin means separation, Amy. This is something you know, and are now taking the "dead log" approach to proper understanding of spiritual death.
    Scripture that He has not revealed Himself to all men?
    ...written to believers stating that we both have a spriitual side and natural side.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    This post does not fall within the BB rules. You just called many believers lost and blinded, when the text does not say Calvinist. YOU DID. Shame on you again..again...and again.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Please be careful not to question the salvation of calvinists who believe in a regenerating work of God.

    Feel free to condemn semi-pelagians who think they can do it without such supernatural intervention.

    :BangHead:

    (SERIOUSLY, let's watch our implications about a subject so important as another poster's eternal life. You call ME unsaved and you will find yourself looking for another board to post on)
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    The Calvinist preach repentance to all the same as we.

    They preach Christ to a dying world, the same as we.

    They preach we are saved by Grace through faith, same as we.

    The believe that only the elect are saved same as we, but we believe all have a chance to become the elect.

    The are my brothers and sisters in the Lord, who believe different in how we get to where we are when we are saved, but still preach repentance to all.

    If you go to one of their services, all you here is to repent of your sins. I have been to many of their churches and services. They call me Brother and I call them Brother and Sisters.

    On BB, we get into the nitty and gritty where we really see our difference, but not matter what they say or I, it still takes God to do the saving. When we get to Heaven, we will all be surprised, who is there and who is not.

    When scripture says judge not, salvation is exactly what its talking about, not our works or fruits, for we are to judge them but we have no right to judge who will be in Heaven, as scripture says, who art thou that would judge another man's servant??

    We are on here to debate scripture and not judge another of salvation.

    BBob,
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Nov 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2007
  11. Jarthur001

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    Wow...powerful post Bob.

    Something we all could learn from.

    In Christ...and your brorther in Christ...James
     
  12. Amy.G

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    What a wonderful post Bro. Bob. I would expect no less from you as I have come to know you as a true man of God in the year that I have been on the BB.

    God Bless you!

    :1_grouphug:
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    Actually, this is as much of a double edged sword as any accusation you bring against Calvinists.

    In criticizing them and alluding to them as Pharisees the same can be said of you.

    Remember that the Pharisees demanded works of righteousness from the Jews, because they see, just as you demand proof of regeneration because you think you have it all figured out.

    One finger points, three point back at you.
     
  14. skypair

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    Hi watchman :wavey:

    In a way, I see Calvinists as believing they are "God's special people" -- the "elect" -- don't you?? They adhere to certain doctrines or tenets.

    Now the Pharisees had works, yes -- but some Calvinists have "Lordship Salvation" as "proof" of their relationship with God, right? And it is "perserverance [works seen in the flesh] of the saints," not "PRESERVATION [Spirit-kept salvation] of the saints," that their theology admits to. I mean, the "P" could have just as easily been for "preservation" but they chose "perserverance" (which is their understanding of it) instead.

    But let's face it -- they do it in the name of Christ. But the Pharisees did what they did in the name of God. I don't see much difference there either.

    I'd like to hear where you continue to disagree with these thoughts. Isn't this a fair comparison?

    skypair
     
  15. skypair

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    There are 2 points I would make:

    1) You are not a "spiritual man/woman" at all until you are saved because you have not been quickened/reborn/revived by the Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit before salvation is to CONVICT the spirits of the ones whose SOULS are dead from sin (John 16:8 -- He reproves the WORLD) . The unregenerate SPIRIT in man is NOT dead -- it thinks and makes decisions every day! It is the CONSCIENCE that is "dead."

    2) Your use of 1Cr 2:14 improperly a) because even saved individuals have some "natural man" left in them and if they live according to the flesh, they will not receive the things of the Spirit. We say that such people have either "grieved," "quenched," or "denied the Spirit." I'm sure you have heard these terms and can apply them.

    b) 1Cr 2:14 is ONLY possible for SAVED -- "perfect" (2:6) -- individuals. "Spiritual man" is NOT possible of an unbeliever.

    There's a lot of theology there, Amy, and I know you are trying to understand things in a new light. Please try to follow my line of thinking and pls ask questions where you don't agree. :applause:

    skypair
     
  16. skypair

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    Calvinism's claim is that the "elect" can "see" spiritually before they hear the gospel so that they DO hear it effecaciously when they are called. The Pharisees claimed that they could "see" spiritually and didn't need to hear Christ.

    If you claim the ability to "see" spiritually so that you are able recognize truth without being saved first, you are actually "spiritually blind" according to Jesus.

    Look at Nicodemus in John 3. In that conversation, he didn't know which end was up! He was "flailing" spiritually. BUT he wasn't rejecting. When he came to believe, then he could counter his fellow Pharisees to the point that they detected that he, too, believed and followed Jesus! You just CANNOT keep insisting that you see spiritually before you are saved. To do so is merely to misinterpret scripture.

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

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    Sure! :type: I am 61 next week. Those who have influenced my walk most are the Holy Spirit and then in this order probably Pastor Noe (led me to the Lord -- love the coincidence of that name!), Dr. Adrian Rogers, J. Vernon McGee, Tim LaHaye (I love to study prophecy and there are a host of similar authors - Clarence Larkin, Van Impe, Pentecost, Walvoord), Dr. Bobby Moore, Dr. Jack Hyles, Charles Stanley.

    I pretty much try to "keep it real" but I am always drawn to Sproul's works as he handles specific doctrines in each book one at a time.

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Nov 3, 2007
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  18. skypair

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    Dr. Bob, Jarthur -- I have made it abundantly clear in all other places, even to the point of referring to their testimonies, that all the Calvinists I know here have come by salvation in via "free will" but now have followed after a different scheme of things.

    Again, I apologize for not making the obligatory remark "present company excluded." I assumed that my last remark in the OP (which I bolded) showed what the real concern was -- not for anyone's salvation but for their being led astray. Organized Calvinism, like Catholicism, has "shepherds" that are leading the flock astray.

    skypair
     
  19. skypair

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    Yes, Bob. There's only one major difference --- they give people the notion that they are saved/regenerated/elect if the understand the gospel, recite a creed and the Lord's Prayer every Sunday, and join the church.

    They do not have invitations to salvation -- it would be contradictory to say there is some "work" you can do to receive salvation and thereby "command God to give it to you." Instead people sit in their pews week after week trying to do what is Christian" and, I've seen it, trying to put on a good face. The best you can hope for is that you are elect or come to believe you are elect (and personally, I am offended by such a gospel). So there you have it.

    skypair
     
    #19 skypair, Nov 3, 2007
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  20. Amy.G

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    True



    If you are not dead spiritually, then why does God need to provide conviction or "help" as some say to bring you to salvation? If we have just tiny bit of living spirit in us, then we would be able to come to God without His aid.

    I don't understand how you can say the spirit is alive, but the conscience is dead. Even unbelievers who will die in their sins and go to hell have a conscience. They know right from wrong. That is why they are without excuse.



    Sky, the verse says the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. You are saying that even as enlightened, regenerated, new creatures in Christ, we cannot understand spritual things? That is the description of an unsaved individual, not a born again child of God. Oh, we still sin and follow the flesh sometimes, but it's not because we don't understand spiritual things.




    This whole passage (1 Cor. 2:1-16) is a comparison between the saved (spiritual man) and the unsaved (natural man).




    I cannot follow your line of thinking because I believe it to be wrong.
     

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