I Tim. 2.3-6

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Perhaps this scripture has been dealt with here before; if so, I missed it, forgive me for again bringing it up.

    1 Tim. 2.3-6

    For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    To me the key is the last part of vs. 6; 'to be testified in due time.'

    What is this to be testified in due time? Essentially it is the truth spoken of in vs. 4; specifically it is the knowledge of the truth of vss. 5 and the first part of 6.

    So what connection is "...to be testified in due time."

    This connection brings in the foreknowledge of God; this due time is an appointed time to which this truth is testified to those who are elected to come to the knowledge of the truth. This due time is an appointed season or "due season."

    The word rendered 'due' is idios it is found also at Galatians 6.9. As applied to kairos which is "a season, and being in due season, or the season divinely appointed for reaping. Also at 1 Tim. 6.15 and Titus 1.3 which states: "But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; (This scripture ties back to 1 Tim. 2.3 and 7).

    The confusing part is the word found here "all."

    While it is scripture, it must be truth "Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for all," What limits this verse to me is not the will of man in failing to "choose" to believe the glad tidings of which we have commandment to proclaim, but the limitation we perceive here is just that, our perception, everything promised here lies within the Will of God, note: "...to be testified in due time." Ours is the chore of fulfilling the proclamation of Free Grace to a lost world and leave to the Will, Purpose and Glory of that Grace to God who sending forth His Holy Spirit shall quicken all of whom He Will in and at the appointed time.

    Another interesting scripture is found in 1 Cor. 15.22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Here note the context: Speaking of the Resurrection Power designated in Rom 1.4 as "...according to the spirit of holiness..." This holiness cannot be said to be imputed to all, though all shall ultimately be partakers of the resurrection from the dead; in this sense all are made alive by Christ, thus apart from Christ there would be no thing known among men except this life, death and the grave, then eternal damnation, yet those resigned to go into their graves without Christ shall partake of the same power which resurrected Christ, only without the 'spirit of holiness' being attributed to them.

    This holiness which is hagiasmos being seperated to God; it is the result of being seperated to God; the word found at Rom. 1.4 is hagiosune and denotes to us the manifestation of the quality of holiness found absolute only in Christ. This we are admonished to strive for the perfecting of, but shall, short of the resurrection morning find unable to emulate to any degree similar to God our Saviour. This is true, though our position, that of sanctification is one predetermined by God for believers into which we are called by His grace; Here lies the connection with Galatians 6.9 whereas in that appointed time, "we shall reap, if we faint not." (reap is associated with harvest, and not with a position; as husbandmen we may be industrious and reap a bountiful harvest, or we my be sluggards and thus suffer loss in proportion to our waste.)

    All this is a work of God; error befalls me when I ascribe any portion of this to my own will. Thus, in the above scripture found at 1 Tim. 2.3-6 'all men' must certainly be those who are seperated to God, through the Grace of God.

    Therefore we can say in pureness of heart: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2 Thess. 2.13

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Harald

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    As for Romans 1:4 the words "the spirit of holiness" are in distinction to "the flesh". "The flesh" in that passage means the humanity of the Lord Jesus. "The spirit of holiness" in the same passage means the Divine nature, or, Deity, of the Lord Jesus. He was the God-Man, and is so still.

    As for the Timothy pericope under consideration the word "all" cannot mean all without distinction, because that would bring contradictions into the inspired and inerrant word of God. God's written word has not real contradictions, albeit some seeming ones which are not real. The "all" here means "all kinds of" or "all classes of". God's will is not impotent as if He sits in heaven and wishes and wants as a dreaming teenager girl in love-sickness, kind of wishing "O I wish that all men of Adam's race would be saved by myself". The Scripture does not testify to such an impotent God who is claimedly restricted by man's alleged free will or whatever it is in man that is more powerful than God's will and strong arm. God wills, He does not wish or want like humans, and when it comes to salvation of chosen sinners His glory is at stake and He cannot afford to be impotent, but is actively willing or determining all classes of men to be saved (here Regenerated) by Himself (through the Divine Son incarnate)and to come to the knowledge of the truth (Gospel conversion). And Revelation states that this is exactly what He did, having in Christ redeemed men out of (Gr. ek) every kindred and tongue and nation etc. There is Paul's "all" or "all classes of" men. The Scripture cannot be broken, and an interpretation which makes the inspired word of God look like a book of contradictions is false.

    Harald
     
  3. Frogman

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    Thanks for the reply bro. Harald,

    I agree with you and was attempting to show, though weakly, that Scripture is not broken, contradicted, nor seperated to private interpretation.

    That salvation is a work of God is evident throughout and accomplished through the elect's being set apart by the Holy Spirit to the belief of the truth.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Yelsew

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    Context:
     
  5. npetreley

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you could give us a point with that? Or at least a side of fries?
     
  6. Yelsew

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    Context! npetreley, context! The meaning of the last part of verse 6 has no bearing on the thought contained in verses 1 - 6a. and it is lost without verses 7 and 8.
     
  7. Primitive Baptist

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    "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (I Timothy 2:4)

    "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" (II Timothy 2:25)

    Since God grants repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, the all whom God will have to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth are those to whom God purposed to grant repentance. However, there is another option. God grants repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, but man may resist the grace of God. This, of course, would contradict our Savior Himself (John 6:37, 45). In this scenario, it could be said that God wills every man without exception to be saved, but as the Scriptures teach, that cannot possibly be true. John Calvin and Matthew Henry were of the opinion that God actually wills every man without exception to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, but their own depravity prevents them from being saved. I do not think I can espouse that theory.
     
  8. Doubting Thomas

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    Perhaps, the problem is not in the word "ALL" but in the translation, "WILL". The NKJV translates "will" as "DESIRES". If this is the case one can maintain a distinction between God's sovereign WILL, in which only the Elect are ACTUALLY saved, and God's DESIRE for ALL to be saved. Afterall, God takes no PLEASURE in the death of the wicked but that they should turn and live (Ezek 18:23,32), while at the same time ordaining the non-Elect wicked unto wrath (Romans 9:22). So maybe God's "desire",rooted in His Nature as LOVE (1 John 4:8), is distinct from WILL which is accordance with ALL His attributes--Holiness, Infinity, Eternity, Justice, Grace, Righteousness, Mercy, Omnipotence, Omnicience Foreknowledge, etc. ("He cannot deny Himself." --2 Tim 2:13)
     
  9. brandontmilan

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    The Greek word, transliterated as 'pas' primarily translates as the english word 'all' there are hundreds upon hundreds of occurences of this word... it is apparently a very broad word... sometimes it means all without distinction, sometimes just a general reference to a group of people... a few examples:

    John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all [men] come to him.

    -now did every single man in existence come to him??? i don't think so... this is obviously making a general reference to a majority or many of a certain group...

    John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    -did the woman actually think that Jesus would tell them 'all' things... every single object, event, idea, action, process, etc that occured/existed, is occuring/existing, will occur, or possibly would have occured if any minor or major detail would have changed, etc. etc. etc... that doesn't even cover everything... i seriously doubt if that is what 'all' was referring to... it referred a general consensus of what really matters... Jesus would tell them that He is the Son of God, and that He is the only way to His Father, etc... now that isn't 'all things' but no Christian that i know of would reject that by 'all things' the speaker actually meant that He would reveal something to them that would be far greater and more significant than anything that they ever knew or ever would know...

    John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

    -once again, i doubt if Christ sat down with this woman and told her every action she did, word she spoke, idea she had, every thought she thought, event she attended, game she played, etc... but rather, 'all' refers to a significant part of what she did... aka, her sin...

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled

    -if all things are pure unto the pure, does that include murder, adultery, theft, etc.?? are sins pure when those who are pure commit them??

    2Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    -this is obviously an example of the opposite meaning than the rest of the verses i've posted... this 'all' must mean all without distinction, or it would falsify all that we believe...

    the meaning of the word is directly dependent upon the rest of Scripture... if something seems to contradict scripture by interpreting it one way, then it apparently can't mean that, and must mean something different...
     
  10. IndpndntBptst

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    "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty."

    How many will dispute that "all" in this text means "all without exception?" Should we pick and choose which government leaders we should pray for? Should we choose to pray for Bush, but not Cheney? It obviously means exactly what it says. Most Calvinists would even agree.

    "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

    Why, in this text, should we change the meaning of "all" to mean "all without distinction?"

    "Consistency...thou art a jewel."
     
  11. KenH

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    In the spirit of consistency, I can then assume that since God's will is that all men are to be saved(surely you don't believe God can fail) and since Jesus paid the ranson for all men(no sins left for anyone to be punished throughout eternity for), then you also believe that all men will eventually be saved - testified in due(or proper) time.

    Thanks for clearing up your position. [​IMG]
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    I Timothy 2:4 ' . . . who 'wishes' {Greek} all men to be saved . . . ' [Romans 5:18]

    Vs. 6 'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.' [Isaiah 45:22; Galatians 2:6; Acts 10:34--{a just and impartial God}; Acts 17:30; I Peter 3:18a,b; I John 2:2]

    Study these verses as to God's honest concern for all of His created beings.
     
  13. KenH

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    Amen. [​IMG]
     
  14. IndpndntBptst

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    Just because the Bible teaches that something is the will of God, does not mean it will come to pass. There are two aspects of the will of God - decretive and revealed (Deuteronomy 29:29).

    Luke 12:47, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

    According to Calvinism, that servant did his lord's will by not doing his lord's will! James 1:8, "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
     
  15. KenH

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    I am sorry, IndpndntBptst, that you believe in a God that fails. That must be a terrible burden to deal with. You must live with absolutely no security that your God can bring you safely home. :(
     
  16. Terry_Herrington

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    IndpndntBptst,
    AMEN! [​IMG]
     
  17. IndpndntBptst

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    Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

    Did Christ fail? If fatalism brings you comfort, go for it!

    John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

    According to Calvinism, the Son of God sealed the condemnation of the reprobate as much as He sealed the salvation of the elect. That is blasphemy against the Son of man!
     
  18. Frogman

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    The condemnation of any is sealed by the sin nature. The salvation of any is sealed through by the Grace of God, through the finished work on Calvary, no part of this blasphemes against the Father, Son, nor the Holy Spirit. Rather, the whole plan is designed by the Father, worked by the Son, and made effective by the Holy Spirit.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  19. Frogman

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    Further,

    Christ's work at Calvary did not condemn the world, but rather by it the world shall be saved; (Rom. 8)

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. sturgman

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    The word "will" in Timothy is Thelo, that of an emotional desire. Like the verse in Ezekial that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. But we all agree that wicked people die, right? So does that mean that God's will did not come to pass? By no means. It means that he can ordain things to come to pass that does not please him but accomplish a greater glory to Him. E.G. the death of Christ. Did God delight in the death of Christ? By no menas, but did he ordain it from before time? Yes, to make him the one who is just, and the one who justifies. Does God desire that all men praise His Mercy? Yes, but couldn't he ordain those in whom will praise His Justice? (Romans 9:22-23) And couldn't he do this and yet greive for them?

    Perfect example, Lazarus. Jesus waited till he died. Mary said if he'd have been there then Lazarus would not have died, and Jesus did not correct her. Then Jesus wept with her... but did't he plan that Lazarus would die, isn't that why he waited? Why isn't he crying? Because being sovereign does not mean you neuteer God emotionally. He cares for us.

    People believe that if you make God completely Sovereign that you will have a mean God. How do they come up with that? God is all powerful, all free (aka sovereign) and completely loving. It is the best of both worlds.
     

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