I was once a Sinner - and I still Am!

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, May 26, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

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    Question arose that needed its own thread. When a person becomes a Christian, is he correct to say he is no longer a "sinner"?

    I am now a child of God, right? Not saying I do not SIN (at least I sure still sin), but is the title "sinner" appropriate for me?

    Thanks.
     
  2. av1611jim

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    Answer; NO! It is not correct to say he is a sinner. Or another way, it IS correct to say he is NOT sinner.
    Yet John says that he who says he does not sin is a liar. Therefore, while we may at times sin, we are NOT identified as sinners.
    Paul never adresses believers as sinners. Nor does he address believers as 'sinners saved by grace'.
    He always addresses the believers as 'saints'.
    While at times we may not ACT saintly, we are still, nevertheless, 'saints'. (never-the-less)
    Jim
     
  3. massdak

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    i think that it depends on the statement of context.
    the apostle paul separated his sin from who he now was in Christ.
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    Dr. Bob, I started a new thread on this last night here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2260.html

    Okay, it's my fault. Made the statement that I am NO longer a sinner (even though I sin) that caused some people to foam at the mouth, LOL, and resort to namecalling. [​IMG]

    So here it is: If I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a sinner. Some here are confusing the "state" of being a sinner with actions and equate them to be one and the same. They are not.

    Also, if I refer to myself in my former estate as a worm with filthy rags, when I have been redeemed by the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, I negate the value of what He did.

    I am justified and sanctified. I am a NEW creature in Christ, all things are passed away, behold all things are become new. I am no longer dead in my trespasses and sins.

    So therefore, I am no longer a sinner, but a blood washed Saint, Child of God. [​IMG]

    BTW, amen, massdak. One should not pull a Scripture out of context on which to build a doctrine or prove a claim.
     
  5. GeneMBridges

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    Problem arise when we say are saints and display that as the platform from which to judge others' sins in a Pharisaic manner.

    "Well, I'm a sinner saved by grace, but at least I'm not a lost person."

    Or in dealing with somebody caught in sin,

    "I'm was a sinner, but now I'm a saint, but that person is a horrible sinner."

    It is an us/them, I'm better than "those people" mentality that such statements foster. It displays a complete and utter misunderstanding of justification and sanctification and the profound depth of sin and its power over us. That's precisely the attitude of the Pharisees that the Lord condemned.

    Martin Luther said it best when he said that the Christian is both sinner and righteous simultaneously in this life. The pattern of God in the Christian life is the same as that of Jesus. As Jesus was both fully God and fully man, so the sinner is, in a sense, fully righteous and fully sinner in this life. Therefore, yes we're saints, but, yes, we are also still sinners both in the present tense. Only in the mind of God are we otherwise. Not until the final piece of salvation, will that be fully and finally changed. It is that practical state, not that abstract state from which we are to speak when we seek to promote God's holiness. We are new creations, but, while not having two persons with us (true dualism), we have two principles at work within us. For that reason, we must continually acknowledge that, while saints from God's perspective, we are still sinners. We must confuse our legal status with our mortal and moral state.

    James Montgomery Boice in every lecture on total depravity that I have ever read from him has said that it is inappropriate to say one is not a sinner in this life, because sinners are simply people that sin. To say "I'm a saint," without acknowledging anything more is to say "I'm better than somebody who is not saved." Why, because it displays a manifest misunderstanding of the depth of human sin and the depth of one's ongoing need for Christ. Faith in Christ and the work of Christ do not stop at being justified by faith, they are ongoing. One is declared "saint" and not "sinner" by justification, but that is not a license for ungracious living or comments to others that "I have not sinned." In God's mind, that is so, in that, from God's perspective we are in Christ, but that does not take away from the fact that we still sin and still does, in fact rule every Christian in at least one way. For that reason statements like, "I am not a sinner" are unwarranted and display a profound level of pride. The very thing they are intended to say is negated by the pride they display. Dr. Boice writes of Isaiah when he saw the Lord that Isaiah, the man charged with prophecy from God realized that he was a man whose lips were unclean. In the very area in which he claimed to speak for God, he was a foul mouthed person. The very things he said were being negated by the words with which he said them.

    Dr. Boice writes, "a penitent spirit is one of the hallmarks of Calvinism. The true Calvinist is the man or woman who wakes up in the morning saying, "God have mercy on me, a sinner" (Luke 18:13). It is only that attitude that says "I am a sinner," (present tense) not the attitude that says, "I am a saint, and no longer a sinner" that can be an adequate platform from which to promote God's holiness with all humility and gentleness.

    [ May 26, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  6. av1611jim

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    I respectfully disagree.
    It is the attitude of, since God has transformed me, I will now walk according to my identification with Him.
    You see calling yourself a sinner as an act of humility. I see it as denying the power of God.
    I see identifying yourself as a saint as a constant reminder to oneself that 'once I was lost, but now I am saved' and being motivated to live accordingly. You SEEM to see it as a source of pride.
    You are welcome to call yourself a sinner, I suppose. I, however, do not see it as a scriptural indentification.
    I will stand where Paul said I am standing. As a saint of God.
    Jim
     
  7. massdak

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    you know i can agree with most of your post, but it does work both ways.
    you are setting up some straw men here with your use of this &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;"I'm was a sinner, but now I'm a saint, but that person is a horrible sinner."&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
    to describe those who do not buy into certain aspects of condoning that which could seems to relate to acceptance of certain sinful lifestyles.
    how many times can one beat a dead horse.
    would you witness to a murderer any different then any other sinner?
    doesn't the gospel message go to each the same way?
     
  8. GeneMBridges

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    massdak,

    I will not discuss this but one more time with you. It is you that keep saying that viewing homosexuality as I do is a way of condoning it or advocating its acceptance. You have continually claimed it is, but you never have demonstrated how that is so. I have not condoned it. Nobody that views it my way does condone it. Your entire argument here turns on that presumption which I have shown to be false repeatedly. Nobody in that thread has said that the gospel does not go to people in the same way. What they have said is that homosexuals do not make the choices they make in a vaccuum, and, as every ex-gay ministry in this nation says, there is a measure of shared responsibility that goes with individual homosexual sin. That is one of the reasons it is such bondage.

    I am setting up no straw man, nor am I beating a dead horse. It is you who continue to bring up that issue. I only address it now, because you have alluded to it. [ Unrelated comment deleted, I did feel this was an unrelated personal attack, especially since you included a reference to the alert button, seems like you are doing some baiting yourself here, you have been warned by myself and by Sister Diane, please heed the warnings ]. If you have problems with anything I have written go to this website:

    Harvest USA

    and do something openminded and read through the articles there. After having done so, then perhaps you can start a thread about homosexuality once again. I have said nothing they do not say, and, for the record, the church that runs that ministry is widely known as one of the most conservative fundamentalist churches in this nation. It is 10th Ave. Pres. in Philadelphia, pastored by Donald Grey Barnhouse, James Montgomery Boice, and now Dr. Philip Ryken. That church's position is backed up by my own church's position, and our former pastor Dr. C. Mark Corts is also known widely in fundamentalist SBC circles, a man ladyeagle highly respects. I also know that there is a ministry at FBC Woodstock, GA that supports my position, and FBC Woodstock is pastored by one of the foremost fundamentalist pastors in the entire SBC, Johnny Hunt. Yes, I know those are appeals to authority, but nevertheless I make them simply to show you that the array of political and theologically conservative leadership in this nation is arrayed against you and LadyEagle.

    I realize that we differ on our viewpoints. However, I will not be baited into discussing the issue with either of you any further, since, to my knowledge, neither one of you has looked at any of the literature to which I have linked or made any attempt to discuss the issue with those that lead that ministry. If you have issues with their approach, I suggest you take it up with them. There is even an office in TN where you can take the issue.

    However, since this thread is not about homosexuality, I will go no further.

    [Post edited by Brother Dallas Eaton, co-moderator]

    [ May 26, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  9. massdak

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    let the record show that i have not baited this person into an ongoing debate of this nature, but that i object to his derogatory remarks of trying to judge the hearts of certain Christians based on their biblical stance.
     
  10. Johnv

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    Paul, being a saved man, also said he was the "chief of all sinners". He was saying that not only is he a sinner, but a bad one. Yet he was saved.

    Certainly, I'm a new creation. Certainly, I'm saved, by no earned work of my own, but by a gift from Jesus, whose gift I don't deserve. But I'm also a sinner. I struggle with sin every day. I still need Jesus, daily, because I'm a sinner, daily. I will cease to be a sinner the day I die.
     
  11. LadyEagle

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    I feel important now knowing the "array of political and theologically conservative leadership in this nation is arrayed against me (little ole me personally)."

    What a hoot! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Nope. Open minds open the way to seducing spirits. Only my heart is open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. My mind is closed like a fine steel trap! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [ May 26, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    "Does not play well with others" will go on some report cards soon.

    Glad someone came up with the verse in I Timothy that was my first thought: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

    I AM a sinner. And I would fight Paul over who is chief.
     
  13. Frogman

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    Dear massdak and JohnV,
    I have deleted the last two posts each of you have entered into this thread. Feel free to post more, but please refrain from making any thread a personal issue.

    We each have what we by conviction to believe from Scripture, lets defend that as far as we can by scripture, letting the Holy Spirit convince of the truth of either position that may be true.

    May God Bless each of you.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  14. Johnv

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    I think it's a matter of both. A completely closed mind breeds ignorance. A completely open mind breeds overtolerance. One should have an open mind, but it should be tempered by the open heart, lest one is left with the inability to discern what goes into the mind. A mind without the heart leaves one's mind in the wrong place.

    The would be true of the open/vs closed heart. A completely closed heart breeds unlovingness. A completely open heart breads unbridled fickleness. One should have an open heart, but it needs to be tempered by the open mind, lest one is left with the inability to control one's emotional responses. A heart without the mind leaves the heart in the wrong place.
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    Johnv, you are entitled to your opinions but you once again misinterpreted the meaning of my post. That is why I worded my post that my heart is open to the Holy Spirit, so there will not be unbridled fickleness. Please, I beg you, please read what I actually post and not interject your own interpretation into it. Oh please.
     
  16. GeneMBridges

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    The fact a person is unwilling to even consider opinions other than their own says, to me, a great deal about that person. The fact remains that this thread arose because of the comments of a few that they were not sinners, the same people who set themselves up in judgment that is, in my opinion, Pharisaic, in that, as I wrote above, the things said were in judgment of both a group of persons and others on this board with whom they disagree.

    At least one of those persons has openly here refused to read literature, which itself comes from a fundamentalist Christian church and refers to it as if it opens them up to evil spirits. How can something written by fundamentalist Christians from a fundamentalist Christian perspective open one up to deceiving, misleading, or otherwise evil spirits? I'm sorry, but I just don't see the connection. What harm can it possibly do to read what persons involved in ministry have to say? Surely it could only help at least explain another perspective, a perspective which does not, I might add, condone or excuse anything.

    Why is this? Surely, these two attitudes must be related.

    I am sorry that we cannot see eye to eye on this issue.

    I apologize for comments to massdak about conviction. I do stand by what I wrote about baiting. It has been those persons from the other two threads in question that have started threads relating to those topics of dispute and have alluded to them. That is, by definition, baiting. I realize that the rules on other boards are not the same, however, at www.carm.org, those persons would likely have been warned for trolling/baiting by this point. I know...I did a rotation as a moderator there at one time, and their rules are VERY stringent, because unsaved persons are allowed to participate in all but two forums there.

    When we disagree with them, we are called ungodly, politically correct, liberal,purveyors of a social gospel and all sorts of perjorative terms, many of which have strong theological connotations, that, when I read them, say I am being falsely accused of believing and preaching something I do not preach because I understand what theological liberalism and neo-orthodoxy is and what "social gospel" means. Let's not throw around terms we do not fully understand so glibly, please. When we object, we are accused of personal attacks, but they do not see the personal attacks they make. I tire of this double standard. It is shameful, from BOTH camps. Meanwhile, with regard to homosexuals, others, not the persons about whom I write I might add, are allowed to call them "homos" and "queers," which ARE perjorative terms that carry with them the same meaning as the word "nigger," (and I speak now as a former homosexual who is DEEPLY offended by such remarks), and those persons get no warnings whatsoever and in fact, there is a "wink, wink,--elbow-elbow" attitude that seems to let that go unnoticed. It seems to me nobody can claim altruism, not even moderators.

    The ironic thing is that in the thread regarding naming the accuser of the church, the very part that was snipped is the part that says NOBODY IS IMMUNE.

    Satan must be very proud of himself right now.

    We ALL need to apologize to each other. I have stepped up to the plate. Will anybody else join me?
     
  17. Johnv

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    Actually, in your example, I would be in agreement with you. I was simply expounding on what you said. No disrespect intended. [​IMG] To follow in the footsteps of the previous post, my apologies for not making that clear.
     
  18. Daniel David

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    John, was Paul smoking pot on the side? He statement about being the chief of sinners was one of personal perspective because he understood the seriousness of sin. Don't forget that Paul called on certain men to be harshly judged because of their sin. That wasn't very loving of him was it?
     
  19. Johnv

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    Please cite chapter and verse so we can be discussing the same issue.
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    Posting these verses into the fray:

    Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinnneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”—I John 3 :6.

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”—I John 3:8.

    “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”—I John 3:9.

    Hmmm....

    "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God" Romans 7:4

    Hmmmm.....so if we are part of the Body of Christ, how can we still be sinners?

    2 Cor. 5[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    [ May 26, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     

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