"I will build my church"

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Sep 26, 2003.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    What do you think Jesus meant by "church" in Matthew 16:18 when He said, "...I will build my church"?
     
  2. tragic_pizza

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    Well, the Greek used there is transliterated "ekklesia," and means "a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): -assembly, church."

    So, I'd say that's what He meant.
     
  3. neal4christ

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    Ditto. Called out believers.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  4. Jude

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    "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Mt.16.18 NIV

    Jesus promise here is that He will build his church, and that it will endure. Of course, Joseph Smith and Martin Luther would have disagreed with Jesus. They, and many today, believe that the Church was so-thoroughly corrupted that only with the Reformation came the true Church. I'll believe Jesus rather than Luther or the prophet of the LDS.
     
  5. A_Christian

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    You should place your faith & trust in Jesus the Christ and not place your faith & trust in the authority of a church. If you are not a part of the of body of believers (CHURCH), then you cannot be a Christian no matter the denomination you choose to visit.

    It is a particular church's interpretation of
    what Jesus meant that is in question here. The
    Roman Catholic church is not unbias in that
    regard, nor are all those who pay their tithe, partake in the Mass, nor kiss the pope
    going to end up in heaven. [​IMG]
     
  6. WPutnam

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    Then you also disagree with scripture, where Christ established His Church, giving Peter, whom He just declared He would built that church upon, giving him the "keys of the kingdom" followed by an amplification, the power to "bind and loose," and you still insist upon not trusting in that church?

    And of course, our faith is primarily in Jesus Christ! But if He established a Church with that kind of awesome authority, why then do you not trust it?

    The Catholic Church has taught this from ancient times, immediately adjacient to the end of the apostolic era:

    http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/church.htm

    In this link, you will find some good reading, the writings of the early fathers that show this belief we have from ancient times.

    Have fun reading! [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    LORD, have mercy on us.
    CHRIST, have mercy on us.
    LORD, have mercy on us.
    CHRIST, hear us.
    CHRIST, graciously hear us.
    GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
    GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
    GOD THE HOLY GHOST, have mercy on us.
    HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us.
    HOLY MARY, pray for us.
    HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, pray for us.
    HOLY VIRGIN OF VIRGINS, pray for us.
    ST. MICHAEL, pray for us.
    ST. GABRIEL, pray for us.
    ST. RAPHAEL, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY ORDERS OF BLESSED SPIRITS, pray for us.
    ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST, pray for us.
    ST. JOSEPH, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, pray for us.
    ST. PETER, pray for us.
    ST. PAUL, pray for us.
    ST. ANDREW, pray for us.
    ST. JAMES, pray for us.
    ST. JOHN, pray for us.
    ST. THOMAS, pray for us.
    ST. JAMES, pray for us.
    ST. PHILIP, pray for us.
    ST. BARTHOLOMEW, pray for us.
    ST. MATTHEW, pray for us.
    ST. SIMON, pray for us.
    ST. THADDEUS, pray for us.
    ST. BARNABAS, pray for us.
    ST. LUKE, pray for us.
    ST. MARK, pray for us.
    ST. PATRICK, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY APOSTLES AND EVANGELIST, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY DISCIPLES OF OUR LORD, pray for us.
    ALL YE HOLY INNOCENTS, pray for us.
    BE MERCIFUL, spare us, O Lord!
    BE MERCIFUL, graciously hear us, O Lord!
    FROM ALL EVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM ALL SIN, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM THY WRATH, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM A SUDDEN AND UNPROVIDED DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM THE DECEITS OF THE DEVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM ANGER, HATRED, AND ALL ILL WILL, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM THE SPIRIT OF FORNICATION, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM LIGHTNING AND TEMPEST, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM THE SCOURGE OF EARTHQUAKE, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM PESTILENCE, FAMINE, AND WAR, O Lord, deliver us.
    FROM EVERLASTING DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THE MYSTERY OF THY HOLY INCARNATION, O Lord, Deliver us.
    THROUGH THY COMING, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THY NATIVITY, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THY BAPTISM AND HOLY FASTING, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THY CROSS AND PASSION, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THY DEATH AND BURIAL, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THY HOLY RESURRECTION, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THINE ADMIRABLE ASCENSION, O Lord, deliver us.
    THROUGH THE COMING OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE PARACLETE, O Lord, deliver us.
    IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, We Sinners beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST SPARE US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST PARDON US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING US TO TRUE PENANCE, We Beseech Thee hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GOVERN AND PRESERVE THY HOLY CHURCH.... We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO PRESERVE OUR APOSTOLIC PRELATE AND ALL ECCLESIASTICAL ORDERS IN HOLY RELIGION. We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO HUMBLE THE ENEMIES OF THY HOLY CHURCH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE PEACE AND TRUE CONCORD TO CHRISTIAN KINGS AND PRINCES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GRANT PEACE AND UNITY TO ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING BACK TO THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH ALL THOSE WHO HAVE STRAYED AWAY, AND LEAD TO THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL ALL UNBELIEVERS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO CONFIRM AND PRESERVE US THY HOLY SERVICE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST LIFT UP OUR MINDS TO HEAVENLY DESIRES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST RENDER ETERNAL BLESSINGS TO ALL OUR BENEFACTORS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST DELIVER OUR SOULS AND THOSE OF OUR BRETHREN, RELATIVE, AND BENEFACTORS FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE AND PRESERVE THE FRUITS OF THE EARTH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE ETERNAL REST TO ALL THE FAITHFUL DEPARTED, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE GRACIOUSLY TO HEAR US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    SON OF GOD, We beseech Thee, hear us.
    LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Spare us, O Lord.
    LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Graciously hear us, O Lord
    LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Have mercy on us.
    CHRIST, HEAR US.......
    CHRIST, GRACIOUSLY HEAR US.......
    LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
    CHRIST, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
    LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......


    - The Litany of Saints -
     
  7. thessalonian

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    "You should place your faith & trust in Jesus the Christ and not place your faith & trust in the authority of a church."

    Trajic. Got a question. Should you trust your own understanding. Little help.

    "trust no in your own understanding but rely on the Lord". Prov. 3:5

    Hey, that's great. It seems to cofirm your position. But there is a problem. God also says "He will give you shepherds after his own heart who will give you KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING". Do you trust in the Lord enough to trust in these words that he has given us. And do these words not lead you to trust in some men who are his shepherds. You must, for from these men you must obtain knowledge and understanding. Apparently you cannot gain it on your own. And, though I will agree that part of what the sheperds have given is contained in scripture there is no verse that tells us that we should get our knowledge and understanding exclusively from scripture.
     
  8. gb93433

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    I think 2 Timothy would come as close as one could get.

    2 Timothy 3:16-4:4, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

    [ September 27, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]
     
  9. Jude

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    Problem here, of course, is that the Church, that you so-distrust, established the New Testament Canon, and, established the doctrines that the Church worldwide holds in common today. Of course, not just any-church will do. The fullest expression of 'Church' is a catholic one-and not only ROMAN Catholic.

    Matt. 28.16-20 NIV
    Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    [ September 27, 2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]
     
  10. John Gilmore

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    Could you provide a citation where Luther disagrees with Jesus?
     
  11. John Gilmore

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    I believe that there is upon earth a little holy group and congregation of pure saints, under one head, even Christ, called together by the Holy Ghost in one faith, one mind, and understanding, with manifold gifts, yet agreeing in love, without sects or schisms. I am also a part and member of the same, a sharer and joint owner of all the goods it possesses, brought to it and incorporated into it by the Holy Ghost by having heard and continuing to hear the Word of God, which is the beginning of entering it. For formerly, before we had attained to this, we were altogether of the devil, knowing nothing of God and of Christ. Thus, until the last day, the Holy Ghost abides with the holy congregation or Christendom, by means of which He fetches us to Christ and which He employs to teach and preach to us the Word, whereby He works and promotes sanctification, causing it [this community] daily to grow and become strong in the faith and its fruits which He produces.

    We further believe that in this Christian Church we have forgiveness of sin, which is wrought through the holy Sacraments and Absolution, moreover, through all manner of consolatory promises of the entire Gospel. Therefore, whatever is to be preached concerning the Sacraments belongs here, and, in short, the whole Gospel and all the offices of Christianity, which also must be preached and taught without ceasing. For although the grace of God is secured through Christ, and sanctification is wrought by the Holy Ghost through the Word of God in the unity of the Christian Church, yet on account of our flesh which we bear about with us we are never without sin. . .

    But outside of this Christian Church, where the Gospel is not, there is no forgiveness, as also there can be no holiness [sanctification]. Therefore all who seek and wish to merit holiness [sanctification], not through the Gospel and forgiveness of sin, but by their works, have expelled and severed themselves [from this Church].


    Luther's Large Catachism
     
  12. Chrift

    Chrift
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    Who?

    "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 3:11)

    "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. " (Eph 2:19+20)

    "which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." (Eph 1:20-23)

    Is this exclusive to Peter or is it again repeated to the other disciples?
     
  13. WPutnam

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    Who?

    "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 3:11)
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Jesus,the "foundation," builds His church upon Rock, the person He just named that! [​IMG]

    You say "no one can lay any foundation other than the one alaready laid"? Jesus does not call Peter a "foundation," but merely ROCK upon which the church is to be built. Therefore, the ROCK then must then lie upon that very foundation which is Jesus!

    Jesus is the founder, not Peter.

    Jesus appointed Peter as a leader of his apostles, giving him the "keys of the kingdom" and the power to "bind and loose." He is exclusive in receiving those wonderful "keys," which is a pretty good metaphor for authority, as we also see in Isaiah 22:22.

    And, of course, Jesus was to later extend authority to the remaining apostles in Matt. 18:18 and John 20:22-23.

    Wonderful! And the ROCK which Christ appointed stands on that very foundation! [​IMG]

    See how simple that was? [​IMG]

    AMEN TO THAT! The Church is Christ's church, Christ being it's very founder! [​IMG]

    I last said:

    giving him the "keys of the kingdom" followed by an amplification, the power to "bind and loose," and you still insist upon not trusting in that church?

    Show me where Jesus gives the "keys of the kingdom" to anyone else other then Peter.
    Peter was the first to receive the power to "boind and loose," later to be extended to the apostles in Matt. 18:18, and today, as the pope is the successor of one who originally had the "keys of the kingdom," my local bishop, bless his heart, the Most Rev. John Ricard, has the power to "bind and loose" as in Matthew 18:18, or in other words, authority is spread out throughout the hierarchy of the Church.

    The admiral of the 6th Fleet in the Mediterranean has an authority, similar to my bishop, but that admiral is subordinate to the Chief of Naval Operations in Washington, DC., and my bishop is subject to the Bishop of Rome.

    Get it? [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Rome has spoken, case is closed.

    Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
     
  14. gb93433

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    Who?

    "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 3:11)
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Jesus,the "foundation," builds His church upon Rock, the person He just named that! [​IMG]

    You say "no one can lay any foundation other than the one alaready laid"? Jesus does not call Peter a "foundation," but merely ROCK upon which the church is to be built. Therefore, the ROCK then must then lie upon that very foundation which is Jesus!

    Jesus is the founder, not Peter.

    Jesus appointed Peter as a leader of his apostles, giving him the "keys of the kingdom" and the power to "bind and loose." He is exclusive in receiving those wonderful "keys," which is a pretty good metaphor for authority, as we also see in Isaiah 22:22.

    And, of course, Jesus was to later extend authority to the remaining apostles in Matt. 18:18 and John 20:22-23.

    Wonderful! And the ROCK which Christ appointed stands on that very foundation! [​IMG]

    See how simple that was? [​IMG]

    AMEN TO THAT! The Church is Christ's church, Christ being it's very founder! [​IMG]

    I last said:

    giving him the "keys of the kingdom" followed by an amplification, the power to "bind and loose," and you still insist upon not trusting in that church?

    Show me where Jesus gives the "keys of the kingdom" to anyone else other then Peter.
    Peter was the first to receive the power to "boind and loose," later to be extended to the apostles in Matt. 18:18, and today, as the pope is the successor of one who originally had the "keys of the kingdom," my local bishop, bless his heart, the Most Rev. John Ricard, has the power to "bind and loose" as in Matthew 18:18, or in other words, authority is spread out throughout the hierarchy of the Church.

    The admiral of the 6th Fleet in the Mediterranean has an authority, similar to my bishop, but that admiral is subordinate to the Chief of Naval Operations in Washington, DC., and my bishop is subject to the Bishop of Rome.

    Get it? [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Rome has spoken, case is closed.

    Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And all of them are subject to God. We are subject to man until it violates our subjectivity to God which is first.

    Acts5:29, "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men."
     
  15. WPutnam

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    YOu know, qb, a little context goes a long way, don't you think? What "men" do you think Peter was speaking of in that quote?

    Could it just be the Sanhedrin and the high priest?

    Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the value of discipline and authority. And if so, you would make a poor sailor in my Navy.

    And I'm 30 years career, now retired...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  16. trying2understand

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    There seems to be a high degree of agreement here that when Jesus said that He would build His Church, He was talking about one universal Church of believers.

    So how did some go from this to local independent churches?

    When the Apostles addressed a church in a particular city, could it be that they were not saying that it was a local independent church, but rather they were speaking to the members of the universal Church which resided in that city?

    Where did the transition originate that takes some from a single universal Church to an inestimatable number of independent churches?
     
  17. gb93433

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    YOu know, qb, a little context goes a long way, don't you think? What "men" do you think Peter was speaking of in that quote?

    Could it just be the Sanhedrin and the high priest?

    Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the value of discipline and authority. And if so, you would make a poor sailor in my Navy.

    And I'm 30 years career, now retired...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
    </font>[/QUOTE]I understand the context quite well. All of scripture is past tense. Does that mean nothing applies to you? Certainly that passage is a record of an event. Don't you think that the principles of that could be drawn and applied today? Luther certainly thought so. If you would disagree take a look at Jesus and Paul and see how many past tense OT quotes they applied to their present situation.

    Regarding discipline and authority: Take a look at Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction."

    Prov. 9:10, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

    Matthew 10:28, " Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus spoke this.

    Where does the pope fit in all this? I am called to a higher authority than the pope or any church or any other man, God. The Bible says in I Peter 5:6, "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time." It says that I am to humble myself under God not some other man. My God is the same God that can turn water into wine and make the mountains move. My God is the same God eho works in me through the Holy Spirit. My God is the one who had power over death and hell. No pope can claim that authority only God.

    Lok at what Jesus did with His authority in Mt. 20:25-28, "But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
    He had authoority and still does.

    1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Who is "He?" I don't need a priest to forgive me.

    In Luke 5:21-26 it says, The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home." Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God. They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen remarkable things today."

    "Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the value of discipline and authority. And if so, you would make a poor sailor in my Navy."

    I think I understand the value of discipline and authority. Growing up on a dairy farm and getting up at 3:30 AM every morning taught me discipline well.

    I don't value an empty faith. (James talks about the difference between an empty creedal faith and a genuine saving faith). You have exalted the pope to a place (by the RCC telling you) to a place that he was never intended to be. He is not God. He is not Jesus. God is alive and we don't need a pope to take His place. When Jesus left he said that He would leave the Holy Spirit. Is that not sufficient? The pope is not the Holy Spirit is He?

    If you submit yourself to absolute papal authority you have made God out to be dead and have allowed the pope to usurp the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I cannot allow myself to submit to somebody who follows in the footsteps of some who have done evil things and takes the place of the Holy Spirit. If you do your research you will find out what evil things I am talking about.

    James 1:5-7 says to the congregation present at the time, "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." It says to ask God for wisdom not a pope.

    God is my ultimate authority. Come judgment time everyone will appear before God that includes you and me and the popes. To some he will say, "Not everyone who says to Me, ` Lord , Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, ` Lord , Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' Who enters into heaven? God’s ways are not the invention of any man. You see in the gospels how Jesus condemned the religionists.

    Isaiah 55:9 says, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

    God's ways are not at all like man's inventions and rationalistic ideas.

    My God is alive and he is able to work in and through me as He desires. He does need to assistance of a pope like some think. My God destroys nations and lifts them up. He doesn’t need a Navy to tell Him what to do. Just read the books of the prophets. Most nations fall from within not so much from an outside attack. He doesn’t need anything to help Him. He is God. We need Him. He doesn’t need us. We don’t need a pope. We need God. When we have God we have all we need.


    My God is able....
     
  18. Jude

    Jude
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    I'm not R.Catholic, but God did institute Bishops to 'guard' the faith and defend it, and to oversee the churches. Without a Bishop, without the faith catholic, "every man (does)what is right in his own eyes," and leads to the utter chaos that we see in Protestantism today.
     
  19. WPutnam

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    You know, qb, a little context goes a long way, don't you think? What "men" do you think Peter was speaking of in that quote?

    Could it just be the Sanhedrin and the high priest?

    Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the value of discipline and authority. And if so, you would make a poor sailor in my Navy.

    And I'm 30 years career, now retired... </font>[/QUOTE]I understand the context quite well. All of scripture is past tense. Does that mean nothing applies to you?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture applies to you and me in the right context, which I still don't think you understand. Where scripture says we are to love the Lord with our whole mind and strength, it is obvious that it applies to us. But when scripture shows a situation with a given group, like the Sanhedrin is our example, it is NOT speaking about a specific group in the future, or as it exists today. Now, it is quite valid to say that a group today is likened onto the Sanhedrin, but then you have to demonstrate the similarity.

    Sure, but as I recall, you seem to equate the word "men" (those we are not to be subjected to) to the human clergy of the Catholic Church, whereas, Jesus is speaking specifically of the Sanhedrin. Now, if you want to demonstrate a similarity to the Sanhedrin, by all means do so. But the Catholic Church is not the subject of Jesus' comment here, the Sanhedrin are.

    Which is something all Catholics do as well, qb. But it has nothing whatever to do with the authority of the Church as given in Matthew 16:18-19! If you think so, they you have a dichotomy in scripture you must reconsile/

    What in the world does this have to do with the authority of the Church and the pope? Or are you going to out and out claim that the pope is the one able to "destroy both soul and body in hell"?

    Is your "higher authority" Jesus Christ in heaven over his own Church?

    Think about that question real hard as it is akin to the question, "When was the last time you beat your momma?" It assumes a false dichotomy that Christ is "against" His own church, as it is some kind of a competitive struggle, when in reality, we Catholics see obedience to the Church as obedience to Christ! It has to be that way if Christ established His Church with the authority I am claiming He established!

    Do you know what one of the titles for the pope, qb? "Servant of the servants of God." (From memory.) And I do not recall a more humble pope then John Paul II, other then John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII, and Pious XII. (Beyond that gets into the times before I was born!) [​IMG]

    So, I don't know why you say what you say here, other then to demonstrate some sort of fear, a misapprehension, a preconceived notion of haughtiness, pride and unjustifiable imperialism you paint of the papacy in your mind, something I think is a product of your Protestant upbringing and exposure. I know, as I came from a point in my life where I saw this always. As a Protestant, the pope was "anathema" almost, in the mind of a former pastor of mine. As a Catholic I see both popes who were indeed as you suspect, but they are few in number, swamped by the seemingly hundreds of them who have "St." before their names.

    Jesus Christ is the ultimate authority over His church, from His throne in heaven! And I am sure his influence is manifested by the holy Spirit to His Church always! I believe Christ "rules" his Church through His divine protection of His Church per Matthew 16:18 "…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" even while we acknowledge the existence of wicked priests, bishops and a few popes. Even he had a wicked apostle among his own chosen 12!

    I have often heard it said that it is truly a miracle that the Church, ran by fallible men, sinners that they are, has not fallen by the wayside hundreds of years ago. There is no older human "institution" then the Catholic Church. (Other religions may be older, but they are not institutionally constituted as the Catholic Church is.)

    And while Christ has the ultimate authority, he gave authority to the very Church He established, without one whit of a talking away from His own authority, as some people state.

    [quotre]1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Who is "He?" I don't need a priest to forgive me.[/quote]

    Then please explain to me the awesome power given to the apostles in John 20:22-23! Note that the apostle John wrote both of these! [​IMG]

    That does not take away the capability of my getting on my knees and asking God for forgiveness of my sins! We call that Making an Act of Contrition. But Jesus gave the power to forgive or retain the sins of men to His apostles on purpose - the direct human to human contact thereputic effect even psychoanalysist's wish they had - the power to forgive sins.

    You dig your own hole and fall into it with that quote, qb! [​IMG]

    You see, scripture is quoting the scribes and the Pharisees and what they say. Their expletive question does not make it so, that Christ cannot forgive sins! And Christ very well demonstrates his power by His comparison of an obvious truth, "what is it easier for me to do, to say 'your sins are forgiven' or to say "get up and walk'?" (paraphrased)

    And the astounding thing is, after his death and resurrection, when he appeared to them through a locked door, which certainly got their attention, he has a marvelous preamble to his words to come:

    1. "Peace be be with you, As the Father has sent me, so I send you." A build-up to what He is going to do next, almost like "pay attention, as I am going to say something important."

    2. "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them…" When was the last time God breathed on anyone? Perhaps when he breathed life into man, Adam, when God created Him? Surely this is not a trivial thing Christ is about to do here, The tension builds and it would seem that as He gave life to Adam, what He is about to do is to give a "second chance" to one who is dead in sin, now can have a "new life" again in forgiveness of those sins!

    3. "…Receive the holy Spirit…" The build-up mounts! What Christ is to say next is important, not trivial, not to be taken lightly, an awesome power even the scribes and Pharisees denied Him, The Christ.

    Now, that is from John 20:21-22 that we see this marvelous seldom seen build-up, other then perhaps a similar build-up seen prior to Jesus changing Simon's name to Peter and establishing His church upon him, now called ROCK (Peter):

    "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained them" (verse 23)

    It brings the tears to my eyes, like it did many years ago, when I finally understood the significance of those words!

    And I am sure you will have some objections to this which I am sure you will voice, wondering if it is anything I have not seen before and refuted time and time again.

    But give it your best shot, qb! [​IMG]

    I previously said:

    "Furthermore, you seem to misunderstand the value of discipline and authority. And if so, you would make a poor sailor in my Navy."

    I am sure that did! In obedience to your father who worked that dairy farm! [​IMG]

    I don't value an empty faith either! And I am not sure James speaks against a faith that has a creed of declaration, given to off-set the thrust of a heresy or two that we have creeds, the Apostles Creed comes to my mind. And with that said, I insist that such a creedal faith can be just as "full" as any faith can be!

    Also, I do not place the pope anywhere, God does! He certainly is not God and nothing in Catholic teaching do we come anywhere near saying such a thing! The pope, being fallible and sinful as all men are, goes to confession just as I do (see above on John 20:22-23) and I am sure he does, as I also do, asking God for forgiveness as well during the day when we entertain a bad thought or two, yet quickly dismiss with a prayer.

    You say "we do not need a pope." Fine with me, sir, as I cannot change your heart, only you can! But I do see the pope as God's representative here on earth, sinful and fallible (in most things) as I am.

    John Paul II is approaching the end of his life, I think. And I think he will not see the beginnings of the new year of 2004 (hoping I am wrong). But a marvelous man he is whom I respect as a man of God!

    There you go, making a false dichotomy again!

    And how do you suppose I "submit to absolute papal authority" almost I come groveling up to him to kiss he feet or something! Good heavens, man! I respect and love him just as the early Christians respected and loved Peter as we see in Acts! As for following a sinful pope into some dreadful sin one may have committed (Pope Alexander VI comes to mind here) holds me personally guilty for that sin I may emulate by his example, shuddering at the thought of his own punishment for being that example! What is the charge Jesus makes by the poor example to "His children"? It would be better that one was never born, or like a millstone placed around the sinner's neck? You know how it goes, and again, I shudder at the punishment that must exist for an eternity at the lowest part of hell!

    But out of about six bad popes, what of the hundreds of holy men with "Saint" before their names? Those are the men I look up to! For as they were obedient to Christ, so also will I be obedient to them! And to be obedient to them has be obedient to Christ as well!

    It says nothing of the kind! (It says nothing in reference to the pope.)

    But what it does tell me that for one who "asks of God" yet still "doubts" without reference to the collective body of the faithful, the Church, on his own, Scripture only perhaps, his own "pope" so to speak, then indeed, he is "unstable in all his ways."

    God is my ultimate authority as well! And giving ultimate authority to God, I must also be obedient to God, His Divine Son and to the Church He established!

    How can you be obedient to Christ yet not be obedient to His Church with the authority He has given it?

    Wonderful! I could not agree more!

    Indeed! And that is why His Church, made up of fallible men, must have the holy Spirit to guild it that His promise of Matthew 16:18 is always fulfilled, "…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

    And if Christ said it, I must concur with it if I follow Christ all the way! [​IMG]

    Other then the false dichotomy you create between God and His Church, I agree here! You have God, creating His own Church, yet His Church stands in opposition to God? That is how I read you hear.

    No, the Church I believe in and am obedient to is the Church Christ founded, and to be obedient to that Church is to be obedient to Christ! [​IMG]

    God is always able! He is able to give the power to forgive or retain the sins of men, and to establish His Church with awesome authority! And I will follow that Church always!

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
    aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
    adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
    ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
    solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.


    (Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433
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    I'm not R.Catholic, but God did institute Bishops to 'guard' the faith and defend it, and to oversee the churches. Without a Bishop, without the faith catholic, "every man (does)what is right in his own eyes," and leads to the utter chaos that we see in Protestantism today. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you to a point. I think I understand what you are trying to say and I agree.

    It is the duty and command of the pastors/bishops to guard the faith but when they don’t, God takes over and removes them. It is also the responsibility of the congregation to make it a joy for the pastor to serve. It is God who is the one who exalts and humbles.

    The Mormons are organized and have a tremendous organizational structure. They expect you to submit to their authority. But their authority is not from heaven but rather from hell.

    My contention is that the RCC is not in line with scripture. It is adding to scripture. I believe that if you go back and study the history of the RCC you will see popes who have had illegitimate children. You will see evil deeds. You will see papal decrees with ulterior motives and benefits. And they still adhere to their doctrine of papal authority. We need to call wrong, wrong and right, right.

    If an authority tells me to do something wrong I will not because my ultimate authority is God.

    Nobody can know my heart like God. That is the reason why I must understand who God is. For me to understand that God can humble me or lift me up depending on my attitude toward Him gets my serious attention.

    No pastor can control the heart and mind of each person. A godly pastor will direct them in accordance with what scripture teaches. After all it is God’s word. But it is up to the individual to know God and do what is right in the sight of God. God always wants us to do what is right. It is not dependent on any authority other than God himself.

    The issue of authority is seldom an issue when the leaders and congregation do what is right in the sight of God. But it is with those who want power and control. Remember the illustration of the ant in Proverbs? They just get the job done.

    [ September 28, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]
     

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