I woke up yet again to news of the RCC sex scandal.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

    IV. RESPECT FOR THE TRUTH

    2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

    2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.

    2490 The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason."284

    2491 Professional secrets - for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers - or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason.


    I love this statement..."save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth."

    Exactly how grave does the harm have to be ? Isn't a sodomizer causing grave harm ?


    The horrible truth of the sex abuse scandal is that priests sodomized young boys, and the clergy hid it. They moved perpetrators to different areas, and attempted to cover up their tracks. When faced with the pressure from the local parishoners, Cardinal Law tried to resign, but was refused, at first by the pope. This scandal involved literally hundreds of priests, and the victims number in the thousands, going back 40 years, in some cases. And the above statements are very telling on why this happened. Who exactly does have the right to know ?
    ARTICLE

    From this article....(printed yesterday)

    "As he has during each of the previous three meetings since the scandal broke in January 2002, Gregory apologized for the failure of some bishops to adequately protect their flocks and appealed for forgiveness.

    Yesterday, he went a step further and said the crisis should become a ``rallying point'' for Catholics who want to make a safer church and a safer society."
    (Bishop Wilton Gregory)

    Is this guy admitting that God's perfect church isn't safe for children ?


    Gregory's remarks drew criticism from some victims' advocates who were upset that he suggested the church is poised to move beyond the scandal.

    ``Contrary to statements made by Bishop Gregory and others, we aren't turning the corner here,'' said Paul Baier of the group Survivors First.

    Bishops have yet to pay the price for their mismanagement of the crisis, Baier charged at a news conference where Survivors First released data on the extent of the abuse problem. ``There's no moral authority here until we understand how we got here and who's responsible,'' he said.


    Some angry folks up here.

    And before the inevitable ONION jokes start flying, I'm posting a short list of newspapers and websites that carried news, in the last 2 years, about this scandal. Feel free to look them up and paruse the archives. And there are many, many more. This scandal ain't going away. It is the first thing I wake up to in the daily news, everyday. And the reaction of the people in charge has removed any doubt in my mind, and I am completely convinced, that the RCC can't represent God on earth. It could have been a hero in this case, but acted like a child caught sweeping broken dishes under the rug.

    boston.com
    bostonherald.com
    telegram.com
    cnsnews.com
    newsmax.com
    foxnews.com
    cnn.com
     
  2. MikeS

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    Yep, it's the worst scandal ever to happen to the Catholic Church in America.

    Yep, it happened, as all Church scandals happen, when some in the Church became too much of the world, instead of just in the world.

    Yep, modern culture is a corrosive and deadly thing, and none of us are without its taint. The smoke of Satan fills the air in these "enlightened" times.

    Yep, some bishops acted with incompetence and/or cowardice, and they should be held accountable. Some may have acted with malicious intent, and if so they should be held accountable.

    Yep, the Church will survive and be made stronger and more pure because of this scandal, for Christ has promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. Many saints will come out of these times. I am honored that Christ has called me back to His Church in these terrible times, so that I may play my part in bringing forth greater good from these evils.
     
  3. GraceSaves

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    Amen, Mike!
     
  4. Kathryn

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    Amen, Mike!
     
  5. CalvinG

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    I'm a bit confused as to how sweeping the problems under the rug and moving predators to new parishes (instead of monastic orders) made these particular bishops too much "of the world." Seems to me that the safe, "of the world" response would be to protect innocent children from predators, whatever the predator's clothing or status. Even if on no other basis than protecting one's institution from tort liability.

    The "of the world" response would have been better than what the Catholic denomination systematically did. The inappropriate actions were sufficiently systemic and involved a sufficient number of bishops that it appears to me to be more of an institutional action than the isolated actions of individuals. It is about individuals to the same extent that the burning of "heretics" like me in prior times was about individuals.

    I agree, Brother Curtis. This is strong present-day evidence that the Catholic denomination does not represent God on earth and is not the One True Church. And any who would ask us to consider history I think should understand that the history we consider includes the church's acts in this country.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is not "modern culture" but rather the Church's denying priests any legitimate sexual outlet. Most of the Apostles were married. Yet practices which were good enough for the Apostles themselves are not permitted by the "apostolic" Catholic denomination. It was interesting to watch Catholic spokespeople deny that vows of celibacy had anything to do with the scandal. I'm thinking about prisons...who are the principal victims of sexual assault in these institutions? And what was the sexual orientation of the perpetrator prior to incarceration in most instances?

    If "modern culture" is responsible, perhaps the appropriate answer would be to abandon a practice not practiced by most of the Apostles, which practice is not required in Scripture. (Yes...I know there is an Eastern Rite...but it seems most priests who are not converts from another denomination end up Latin Rite for whatever reason in the USA.) Come to think of it...maybe they just need to use the already-extant Eastern Rite in this country.

    "Modern culture" did not force the bishops and other leaders within the Catholic denomination to do as they did. And in just about any Protestant denomination, these cover-ups and transfers of predators would never have happened. Protestants are quick to turn problems of child molestation over to the appropriate secular authorities. Because we are talking about secular felonies here. And there is no longer any "benefit of clergy."

    I hope I don't sound gleeful that this has occurred. I'm not. It is very sad not only for the victims but also for the witness of Christianity. Because there are some who will reject faith due to seeing priests behave in this manner.

    CalvinG
     
  6. MikeS

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    I realized I forgot something critical.

    Yep, the enemies of God and of Christianity are using this scandal in many ways, often thoroughly dishonest and deceitful ways, to inflict maximum damage on the Church in order to help hasten (so they think) the arrival of the post-Christian world they so greatly desire. Non-Catholics who are enjoying the tribulations of the Church should think long and hard about the true nature of their newfound bedfellows.
     
  7. thessalonian

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    CalvinG,

    Better not gloat to quickly. Hang with me to the end of the post and you will see why.
    I hate to do this post but when Protestants post such nonsense as:

    "{I agree, Brother Curtis. This is strong present-day evidence that the Catholic denomination does not represent God on earth and is not the One True Church."

    First of all, that there is sin going on in any Church is no indication of that Church representing or not representing God on earth. Once again Romans 7, one of Protestantisms favoriter apostles (and mine to :D ) says "The good that I would do I do not. While the EVIL that I would not do, I do.". Did Paul speak for God. Seems so. We have scandal in the NT. Judas denied Jesus and committed suicide. Peter denied our Lord three times and the Corinthians were complacent in allowing a man to continue in an immoral relationship. Then there are the warning of John to the Churches in Rev 3 and 4.

    Going back to the Old Testament, were the Jews God's messangers? They had plenty of scandal and by your standards could not have been. Hophni and Phineous, aaronic priests having sex in the doorway of the tent of the meeting. Scandalous! Sacrificing of children to God's in the book of kings and other places. Surely that makes your stomach a bit queasy. David having his friend killed so he could have his wife and much more. Nasty. Does this disqualify the Jews? Not hardly.

    But what really bothers me about your post is the nonsensical idea that your religions have the higher moral ground on the scandal issue. I have seen articles that say as many as 13% of Baptist pastors have had relations with women other than their wife. One article states that there are 70 insurance claims per week for sex abuse in Protestant Churches (I can look it up if you like). And there is plenty of child molestation going on in Protestant Churches, even Baptist ones. You are nieve if you don't think so. But I will provide you proof. Go to www.reformation.com. It's all nice and neatly categorized for you. The Catholic Church gets so much attention because it is a unified body and there is much more money available as such for lawsuits.

    By the way is there any celibacy in your church. Jesus says some are called to it in Matt 19. Paul also says as much in 1 Cor 7.

    God bless.
     
  8. thessalonian

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    Amen Mike.

    Curtis, your gloating is sickening. It's not just a Catholic problem folks.
    www.reformation.com Some of these incidents are quite new.


    With regard to incidents of Sexual Abuse in Protestant Churches and the 70 insurance claims per week that I mentioned in my post above, an article from the Christian Science Monitor says:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.htm
    "At least 70 incidents a week
    Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says."

    James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denominations– and that clergy aren't the major offenders.

    "The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this"


    Read it. It's quite eye opening for the gloaters. Very sad news however for Christianity in general as all scandal detracts from people coming to Christ and that is why I only post such things when the Catholic Church is attached but nonsensical protestants who think their churches have the higher moral ground.

    Blessings
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    I missed the part about anyone "gloating". I saw a factual report on abuse of children that was even more horrendous than anything revealed thus far.

    Wholesale condemnation of a system that perpetuates vile and heinous crimes (not just sin) is not "gloating".
     
  10. thessalonian

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Bob,

    Curtis not gloating? Nonsense.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Gloating? I still don't see it. Hope that is not the motivation.

    Proclaiming the truth, pointing fingers, condemning, and advocating some character and integrity? Think we're all doing that. Same as Rev 17 when Babylon the great whore falls. No one will gloat, but the truth will be proclaimed.

    Sad time and judgment for sin doesn't call for gloating. Don't read more into the post than what was there.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    BTW, no one is lumping all RCC and all priests into this position.

    Any more than all Pentecostals were like Swaggart or Bakker.

    No broad-brush attack. Just a plea for the strong hierarchial leadership to DO SOMETHING about this tragedy that unfolds every morning in our papers.
     
  13. MikeS

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    As far as I understand the situation, the actual abuse was stopped some 10-15 years ago. It happened mostly in the 60s-80s. The seminaries and the priesthood have undergone a thorough cleaning over the last decade. It's like watching a supernova -- we see the flash long after the star is gone.
     
  14. thessalonian

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    " Gloating? I still don't see it. Hope that is not the motivation."

    That's because you have eye's but don't see and ears but don't hear pastor Bob. The gloating starts with the title. Curtis has been on a gloating rampage for the last week.
     
  15. GraceSaves

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    I appreciate these comments. Unfortunately, that is not how Curtis feels.
     
  16. thessalonian

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    It has been implied in some posts above that sin in the upper ranks of a Church disqualifies that Church as God's true Church. I don't think so.


    Wis 6
    "Hearken, you who are in power over the multitude
    and lord it over throngs of peoples!
    Because authority was given you by the Lord
    and sovereignty by the Most High,
    who shall probe your works and scrutinize your counsels.
    Because, though you were ministers of his kingdom, you judged not rightly,
    and did not keep the law,
    nor walk according to the will of God,
    Terribly and swiftly shall he come against you,
    because judgment is stern for the exalted–
    For the lowly may be pardoned out of mercy
    but the mighty shall be mightily put to the test."

    Blessings
     
  17. Kathryn

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  18. CalvinG

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    Please do not think that my problem with the Catholic denomination is that there are priests who have sinned. There are certainly Protestant clergy who have sinned also. It was what the institution of the Catholic denomination did when this sin was brought to light that concerns me. What you have not stated to have occurred in any Protestant denomination is the transfer of Protestant clergy who have sexually abused children to other churches and concommitant failure to inform civil authorities of their secular felonies. And that is something you won't find. (At least I don't think you will.) I'm not saying that Protestants as individuals have higher moral standing here. But you would not be incorrect if you inferred that I believe the Protestant denominations (as institutions) have a higher moral standing on this issue than the Catholic denomination (as an institution). I did not say that earlier. Because saying that would serve only to divide us further than our beliefs must necessarily divide us. (The actual abuse appears to me to be acts of individuals, not of the entire denomination, but how the denomination responds to serious, truthful allegations of sexual abuse is an act attributable to the denomination.)

    Interesting that you would bring up David and the Jews. Of course they were spokespeople for God. David was annointed by God's prophet. There wasn't a system of competing high priests that we know of back in OT days. So these did speak for God. Today, we are confronted by Protestants as well as Catholics, all saying that they proclaim God's truth. Surely you will acknowledge that is a different situation from OT times. And if there were two sets of high priests, both saying much the same thing about the most important matters of faith, and one claimed infallibility for some aspect of its ministry yet showed institutional failings and the other made no such claim yet did not demonstrate these institutional failings...that would be relevant.

    I would love to know where you are getting these percentages from. Because without proof, I would never assume that one has sinned from private responses in a survey. Well...maybe an anonymous survey taken by their own denomination.

    There is some celibacy in our church. We just don't proclaim it as necessary to be a clergyman. Those who are celibate do not proclaim it from the mountaintop. God knows when we honor him and his word. It might not be inaccurate to assume that unmarried folk are celibate if they take their faith seriously. And we do allow unmarried folk to be clergy. Nowhere does the Bible say that all who are called to be clergy in certain countries, who are not married at the time they receive this calling, must remain celibate. This seems to have been a matter of personal choice.

    Blessings,
    CalvinG
     
  19. Bro. Curtis

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    And exactly how do I feel, Grant ? I don't gloat about these things.

    Yes, I reject the RCC.
    Yes, I feel they mishandled this crisis.

    But to say that I take pleasure in the pain of sodomized children, in any way, is pretty bigoted.

    How do you feel about how your church handled this ?
     
  20. GraceSaves

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    Curtis,

    I'm sorry, but your own words make this very clear:

    "And the reaction of the people in charge has removed any doubt in my mind, and I am completely convinced, that the RCC can't represent God on earth."

    You make a broad statement based on the actions of some, exactly what I commended Dr. Bob Griffin for renouncing and exactly what you above condone and propogate.

    You said:

    "But to say that I take pleasure in the pain of sodomized children, in any way, is pretty bigoted."

    I never even remotedly implied this. Look at who and what I was responding to. There is no logical way for you to derive that I said this about you. Pay more attention, please.
     

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