Identify These "Certain" Disciples in Acts 19:1-7

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. Hark

    Hark
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    It is important to recognize that there are disciples of John the Baptist's still even after His death, resurrection, and ascension.

    Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

    The use of "certain" disciples is the same as coming across some kind of disciples. Not knowing what kind leads into Paul's inquiry.

    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    And yet, Paul was sure they were disciples of some kind and so his next question was under what water baptism they were under.

    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

    So now Paul knew what kind of disciples they were as they were not disciples of Jesus Christ. Paul then explained to the disciples of John the Baptist's that Jesus was the One John was preaching about.

    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    It was then that these disciples of John the Baptist's became believers in Jesus Christ, got water baptized in His name, and were saved as the following verse testified.

    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

    Don't let any errant Pentecostal nor errant Charismatic mislead you regarding that reference to make you believe that saved believers can receive the Holy Ghost again, because such preaching is contrary to the gospel message and is apostasy. Those certain disciples were not believing in Jesus Christ until Paul found out what kind of disciples they were and had to tell them about Jesus Christ for them to believe and to be water baptized in His name and as a result of that believing, had received the promise from the Father of the baptism with the Holy Ghost from Jesus Christ for coming to & believing in Him.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    That's proof that no saved believer can receive the Holy Ghost "again" after they have been saved by Jesus Christ.

    That means seeking to receive another baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes with evidence of tongues is not of Him at all.

    Saved believers should not depart from faith in becoming an adulterous generation in seeking after a sign of tongues when the signs of tongues are for serving towards unbelievers; not for serving as signs for the believers.

    1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

    God's gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people and because this "evidence of tongues" that comes by seeking to receive the "Holy Spirit" " again" happens to comes with no interpretation, those that err believe it to be a prayer language used by the Holy Ghost, but it is not.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    There is no point in saying that if the Holy Spirit can speak His own words and thus be able to pray out loud, using tongues.

    Believers that err use 1 Corinthians 14:14 of context of verse 13 to imply that there is a praying in tongue by the Holy Ghost but not so.

    1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

    The speaking and the praying is two different action being discussed here. It is not the same thing.

    That's Paul giving instructions that those that speak in tongues as manifested by the Holy Ghost, they should pray that someone may interpret it as even Paul admits that it is unfruitful to the tongue speaker unless it is interpreted.

    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    This is Paul trying to clarify the praying part is being done by him, not the Holy Spirit. Paul is emphasizing his need for the tongue being manifested to be interpreted because until it is, it is unfrutiful to himself.

    15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    So believers using verse 14 to insinuate that tongues is a prayer language are reading what they want to believe in the verse out of context, because the Holy Spirit is not the One praying in tongues. Paul is praying that someone else may interpret the tongue that he is saying as manifested by the Holy Ghost.

    So.. not only is it apostasy to receive the Holy Ghost again, but the tongues that comes with it as a sign which happens tocome with no interpretation is not of Him either.

    Better to pray normally so that you know what you had prayed for and to give God the Father genuine heartfelt thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers than hold to the vanity of babblings prayers that you know not what you had prayed for nor giving thanks for and thus being unfruitful to you.

    This preaching another baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes with evidence of tongues is the strong delusion that God will permit on the believers for believing the lie that one can receive the sanctification of the Spirit again after salvation apart from the hearing of the gospel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    Do keep in mind that the pre trib rapture will "save" the elect, aka the chosen, from the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth. Those wayward and unrepentant saints that get left behind will be damned by becoming castaways and to have their portion ( their inheritance) taken out of the City of God to be with the unbelievers in facing the fire coming on the earth as well as the coming great tribulation.

    Those saints left behind are still His as they will be received later on after the great tribulation BUT...

    If any one hears His voice and He has helped you to see your error, turn to Him now before that throne of grace for help to repent by shunning vain & profane babblings and chase no more after the "Holy Spirit" for a sign when He is already within you by faith in Jesus Christ since you were saved.

    to be continued....
     
  2. Hark

    Hark
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    Know the Will of God Versus The Will of the Devil

    May the Good Shepherd help you to return to your first love and chase no more after seducing spirits for a sign because the Bridegroom will be coming soon for the ready & abiding bride of Christ as He will leave those foolish virgins out to the market still seeking to be filled with the "oil" as they will be harvested later on after the great tribulation at His coming.

    2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....18 Who concerning the truth have erred, ...............; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work............24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    So don't let the devil interfere with your prayer time. Note his will as opposing the will of God.

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.....21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

    You pray. You give thanks. That is the will of God and surely the real indwelling Holy Spirit is NOT going to interefere with the will of God.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    First, you cannot possibly correctly interpret this passage without including the immediate preceding context concerning Apollos who is also carried over into this context (19:1) and who also is mentioned that he had the baptism of John.

    Second, Apollos was not rebaptized as were these and you need to understand and explain why he wasn't but these were?

    Third, It is one thing to be baptized "unto John" and baptized "by John." These were not baptized by John the Baptist and that is self-evident because they were completely ignornant of two vital facts that John the Baptist preached to his converts. They did not know about the Holy Spirit (vv. 2-3) or that Jesus was the Christ (v. 5).

    Now, I can explain all three issues by the context, can you? Apparently not, from what I have been reading of your post. I don't even think you realized they were contextual issues.
     
  4. Hark

    Hark
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    Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

    This was testifying to Apollos being a Jew and knowing only the baptism of John the Baptist and thus was not a believer in Jesus Christ... until....

    26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

    Then afterwards, the brethrens wrote to others to receive Apollos whom had helped them much with his knowledge of the scripture of whom had then come to believe in Him through grace.

    27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

    First, Apollos was known for his knowledge of the scripture and then after Aquilla & Priscilla to teach unto him the way of God more perfectly ( and Who is the way of God? Jesus Christ and so.. ) , he became known for shewing the scripture that Jesus was Christ.

    And yes, it was testified that after having come to be a believer in Jesus Christ, they had testified to that water baptism in His name, but that does not mean it did not happen.

    John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

    See the clarity there about Jesus? If someone else was baptizing unto John the Baptist besides John the Baptist, then clarity would have been given there too.

    Scripture testified to John's main preaching...

    Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    Luke 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

    Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

    Not every disciple of John the Baptist was there when Jesus had come to see Whom John was talking about. That was why Paul had to point Jesus out to them.

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    And that was when they were baptized in Jesus's name.

    Apollos was not a believer when he was known for teaching the scriptures until Aquilla and Priscilla had shown Apollos the way of the Lord more perfectly and then he became known as a believer shewing that Jesus was the Christ by the scripture, and by doing so, helped other believers grow in the knowledge of Him for which he was recommended.

    Luke not going into detail of including his water baptism was not the point of this account.

    Luke showing how there can be still disciples of John's unaware that Jesus was the One that John was talking about is the point of Acts 19:1-7.

    There were still disciples of John's known as disciples of John's even after Jesus had come. John even sent his disciples to confirm whethor or not He was the One after all because even John the Baptist had doubted.

    Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

    Having sent only two of his disciples, would testify to others that were not privy to this account.

    Just as there are disciples of John that did not know about Jesus being that Christ that John was talking about of Whom even John the Baptist had doubted at one time.

    Even though I have explained this by His grace & by His help, only God can help you see this truth.

    1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

    Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

    Jesus is the Friend that sharpens us so that we that bear fruit, shall be pruned to bear more fruit.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Wrong! He believed in the Old Testament gospel (Acts 10:43) that all the prophets preached, including John, until John publicly recognized Jesus to be the Christ. Remember, John did not even know who the Christ was until he saw the sign given to him by God point out that it was Jesus. Apollos was a born again saved believer in the Old Testament gospel but simply did not know that it was Jesus who was the Christ. When he understood who the Christ was, he was so well versed in the Old Testament that he was able to show others also. He also did not know about the Spirit baptized new institution the church commissioned to replace John the Baptist in making disciples for Christ. When he was instructed that the church was authorized and commissioned to do this work, he worked through the church from this point forward and preached Jesus as the Christ:

    27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


    He was not REBAPTIZED because the baptism by John of beleivers in the Old Testament Gospel was valid baptism and a valid faith (Acts 19:5).


    Those "disicples" in Acts 19 were the products of someone who claimed authority to carry on the baptism of John, but unlike John did not know anything about the promised coming of the Holy Spirit ("not yet given" as promised by John - Mt. 3:11) that empowered the church to carry out the commission. Their administrator did not know that Jesus was the Christ. Paul told them that John the Baptist preached Jesus as the Christ. It is when they heard that they were baptized under the authority of a church authorized and sent missionary (Acts 13:1-4) - Paul.

    It is pointless to discuss these things with you because you not only lack the necessary Biblical foundations to receive them but you openly oppose the open and obvious truth that there is no salvation at any time OUTSIDE of Christ. Jesus plainly stated BEFORE Pentecost that those presently coming to him in truth faith BEFORE Pentecost were only those given by the Father (Jn. 6:37-39). Paul plainly states that Isaiah preached the gospel of Christ (Rom. 10:16). You don't have to know that the Christ is Jesus of Nazereth in order to be saved prior to Pentecost as even John the Baptist did not know it at one point and yet the Holy Spirit says he was preaching "the gospel" and it is the very same "gospel of the kingdom" Paul preached throughout the book of Acts right to the very last chapter. Get a concordance and look it up before you attempt to deny it.
     
  6. Hark

    Hark
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    After Jesus had come and John had water baptized Him, John has to decrease so that He may increase ( John 3:28-30 ). His baptism was necessary as a start of His ministry as an official announcement from the Father and with the Witness of the Holy Spirit, ( Matthew 3:15-17 ) that God and His Spirit had sent Him to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17.

    John 4:1-2 testify that there was a change in water baptism as His disciples were baptizing more than John had ever done as John had decreased.

    Later, John, by him being in prison, this testify that he was no longer in the wilderness after His baptism and had gotten in trouble trying to convict the king. He had inquired by sending two of his disciples to settle his doubts.

    So, yes, John had recognized Jesus as the Christ, but even he had doubts while languishing in prison which later on, ended with him being beheaded.

    If Apollos was a born again believer in the Old Testament gospel as you refer to Abraham of being, then he would have had the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus linked being born again with the receiving of the promise of the Holy Spirit and Jesus linked when a person was born again upon His crucifixion , resurrection, and ascension so Apollos nor John the Baptist was "born again".

    John the Baptist was in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom when Jesus had descended in meeting the crucified thief that day.

    Once he was a believer and having received the promise of the Spirit thereby, he was fully received as he was preaching Jesus Christ from that point on.

    Then why were the disciples of John the Baptist baptized in Jesus's name then after Paul told them that Jesus was the One John was preaching about?

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    No. There is no indication that they were baptizing in the name of John the Baptist, but of what baptism they were under.

    You are right about discussing with you those things that you seem to deny, but as much as you like to reply to my thread on the subject to denounce what has been shared... let's look at what you are denying...

    No man had ascended to Heaven yet when Jesus said this on earth;

    John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    No man had seen the Father yet either except the Son of God Whom is God when Jesus had said this on earth.

    John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Abraham's bosom was a place that sinners in hell can see and hear, but cannot go across to, and yet not Heaven because King Saul asked the witch to "bring up" the spirit of Samuel.

    Jesus had to descend first to get the keys to hell and death and yet told that thief that He would meet him in Paradise that day.

    The OT saints were resurrected after His resurrection. Why if they were already in Heaven? Does this not prove how they had to put on Christ and how by Him leading the way, they were able to be received by Him in Heaven?

    As much as you claim that I am twisting scripture out of context, I have shown you why I see what I do by His grace & by His help.

    These be the deep things of God, but heresy exists when you imply that sinners were being saved without Christ's death & blood to make it so.

    If Abraham and others were being saved by faith in the promise seed, then the Old Covenant is a what? A joke? A misdirection? Why not preach the Abraham's faith of the promise seed instead of suffering all of that nonsense in trying to keep the law just to show the Jews that they needed the Saviour?

    Jews today believe in the promised Messiah but not in Jesus Christ, and yet they are not saved yet either.

    The New Covenant did not exist yet to make that Old Covenant to vanish away. Abraham's faith was not realized yet till God has made that New Covenant by His blood.

    Like it or not, I believe Jesus when He said that no man can come to God the Father except by Him and pre pentecostal saints had not put Him on yet because He was not in Heaven first to lead them the way into Heaven by Him.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Half-truth! Jesus claims that he administered the baptism of John and all who rejected it under his administration was "rejecting the counsel of God against themselves." - Lk. 7:29-30. It is the only baptism Jesus personally submitted unto and so to deny it to be "CHRISTian baptism is absurd. It is the ONLY baptism existent when he gave the Great Commission which includes only those thing he had already practiced and commanded "I HAVE commanded" and no other water baptism was possible and none other water baptism was predicted.

    It says no such thing! It says the very opposite! Jesus CONTINUED to administer the baptism of John through his disicples and Luke 7:29-30 is absolute proof of that.

    The whole epistle of first John was written to professing Christians in order to assure them of their salvation (1 Jn. 5:13). Your point is simply rediculous.


    Circular argument as the baptism in the Spirit is based here on YOUR DEFINITION which contradicts and replaces the doctrine of regeneration.

    .

    No he did not! John 3:3-11 speaks of the new birth without one word about the promise of the baptism in the Spirit. Paul could not overcome indwelling sin apart from the new inward man empowered by the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 7:18-21; 8:11-13; Gal. 5:16-25) and yet you have Old Testament saints without any regenerated inward man, no indwelling of the Spirit and yet able to walk "by faith" (Heb. 11; Rom. 4). Simply absurd!

    Your whole soteriological foundation is false from the core outward. You don't understand what "death" is and that is why you don't understand the nature of new birth or spiritual union with God. It is hopeless to argue with you on these other things until you start with basics and get them Biblically in line.
     

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