Identity of Babylon in Revelation Made Easy

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. Logos1

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    There is one clue in Revelation that makes it obvious who is the only city that could be mystery Babylon in Revelation. Just as in the Old Testament where apostate Israel was called a harlot John says the same thing about Babylon. Only one city could be considered a harlot and that is Old Covenant Jerusalem.

    John Refers to Babylon as a prostitute that committed fornication in Rev. 17 and only one city could fit that description—Old Covenant Jerusalem. One would have to be in a covenant relationship with God in order to be able to commit fornication.

    Rome past or future is not in a covenant relationship with God so could never commit fornication. Only Jerusalem is in a position to commit fornication.

    This clearly puts the events of Revelation at the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.
     
  2. Robert Snow

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    It takes some spiritual gymnastics to make the events of Revelation fit into the 70 AD time frame. The events of Revelation will take place in the future, after the Rapture of the Church.
     
  3. HankD

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    Logos, don't forget that at one time the Church of Rome was a thriving and healthy local church.

    Romans 1
    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers.

    HankD​
     
  4. kyredneck

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    Agree totally, and there's more than just one clue. The identity of the Great Harlot as the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, is conspicuously obvious from other passages within Revelation, to those who are able to strip away their presuppositions and biases. What other entity could this apply to? :

    ............ she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow,……… . Rev 18:7

    She is no queen, and she is indeed a widow; she killed her husband, Christ the King. And she has been judicially convicted of that murder:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1670498#post1670498

    Excellent point. Rome has never been in a position to commit the covenant fornication that is meant here. Concerning the Harlot City of Revelation it is said:

    And in her was found the blood of prophets.......Rev 18:24

    Which of the prophets ever perished in Rome? Christ said:

    …..it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Lu 13:33

    And the Holy Spirit, through Stephen, squarely convicts the Jews, not the Romans, of the blood of the prophets:

    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 7:51,52

    And concerning the murder of the Righteous One, the Harlot City of Revelation (also known as the great city, the great Harlot, Babylon the great, Babylon the great city) has been both identified and declared guilty:

    .....the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8

    It was to Jerusalem, not Rome, that this dreadful charge was laid:

    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

    This passage concerning the Harlot City of Revelation can only apply to Jerusalem:

    And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24

    Christ told the Jews at Jerusalem:

    Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23:38

    Take note of the desolation that came upon the Harlot City of Revelation:

    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
    21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. Rev 18

    I agree that much of the book of Revelation has had it's fulfillment with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. There is compelling internal evidence that not only is much the book of Revelation concerned with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but that it was written prior to this event:

    And I saw another sign in heaven....and them that come off victorious from the beast... they sing the song of Moses the servant of God....Rev 15.1-3

    The song of Moses is being sang in heaven in the 15th chapter of Revelation. This is very significant. The song of Moses had only one purpose and time, and that was to 'testify before Israel as a witness against them' when they had utterly corrupted themselves and evil had befallen them in the 'latter days':

    16 And Jehovah said unto Moses.....this people will rise up, and play the harlot ...and break my covenant which I have made with them.
    17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day.....and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
    18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought.....
    19 Now therefore write ye this song for you...... that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
    21....when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness.....
    29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
    30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

    It is also significant that Christ and the apostles quoted from the song of Moses several times to 'that generation' of Jews.
     
    #4 kyredneck, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  5. JesusFan

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    Actually, the Roman Catholic Church did commit "spiritual fornication" when it rejected the truths of the Great Reformation, and before that even, when it became "state religion" of Roman Empire.
    And that Church thru the ages has killed multitudes of true believers in Christ...

    So think that the RC fits just as well as Jerusalem...

    personally, thinkl that it refers to Apostate Christianit in End Times, the Church of religious but not saved peoples, almost like an amgalmation of all false religions who deny the Gospel and Christ under one roof...
     
  6. asterisktom

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    There is a whole mountain of evidence that the Babylon of Revelation is none other than the Jerusalem of the first century. This becomes obvious if people would first consider the possibility that their long-cherished futurist paradigm might just be wrong.

    Here are just a few:
    The Roman Catholic Church never had the blood of all the saints and prophets on their hands, Rev.16:6; 18:24.
    The exact length of Israel north to south is given in Rev. 16:16. Many futurists also accept this connection but miss the fact that the context is still concerning the land ("ge", 14:15) being judged, the land being that of "Babylon" (14:8).
    The details of chapter 9 fit very well with the events of AD70:
    Rev. 9:10 "They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months."

    "Oddly enough, the length of time that Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman armies was 5 months. From April to August. Also, the Romans used ballistic weapons that were nicknamed "stingers"and had a specific ballistic weapon called a Scorpion." (This quote is from Jeremy Defrehn). You can also verify the above with Josephus and Ussher (both as to the terminology and the dates).

    Josephus also tells us - as does Revelation - of the exact weight of the stones being catapulted into spiritual Babylon, one talent.

    The entire purpose of Revelation has been misconstrued to accommodate a futurist, not a historical fulfillment. It was certainly future fulfillment as far as John's readers were concerned, but it is long past from our perspective.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Think that one has to read from the OT prophets the idea that God has a future time coming, when He will turn his attentionback to the nation and peoples of Isreal, time of jacobs troubles...

    Daniel gives cleasr timelinre to when messiah would come, and he also tells us when and how Antichrist would be dealing with Isreal in End times...

    Jersusalem MUST be downtrodden by gentiles UNTIL it s the time to fulfill God turning back to dealing with Isreal...

    God was working with his nation Isreal, rejected their Messiah, now in the Church Age, once Church is removed, than he will be dealing once again with Isreal...

    IF revelation was fulfilled in jerusalem fall in AD 70, than what about "all Isreal being saved at that time?" 'that they would see and mourn oner Him?"
    'that a fountain of forgiveness would been openned for Isreal at that time ?"

    Just saying agree with you on how end times scenerios will work their way out!
     
  8. asterisktom

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    Please consider, JesusFan, that what you have here is actually a misquote. Check the passage again. Also, you can find more on this verse here:
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/731105330/all-israel-will-be-saved-romans-1126/

    This is an article I wrote that, among other things, explains how and why this verse is neatly extracted out of its (what would be) explanatory context.
     
  9. kyredneck

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    In lieu of making a brief unsubstantiated statement such as this, perhaps you could point out and refute the errors and 'spiritual gymnastics' that are contained in posts # 1,4, & 6?
     
  10. JesusFan

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    Thanks, was "quoting" from memory , as not having a Bible near me right now...

    per your view than, what remains to be fulfilled prophecy wise at this time, and what actually happens at Second Coming of Christ?
     
  11. kyredneck

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    IMO, from what I've read of your posts and numerous threads, this must be often the case with you, as you provide little if any scripture with your statements here on the BB.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Apr 18, 2011
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  12. JesusFan

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    Depends if I am answering while back at my home study or if "on the road"...
     
  13. kyredneck

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    OK, you've got the benefit of a doubt from me.
     
  14. kyredneck

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    It is no 'coincidence' that the numerous prophecies concerning the awful judgments and destruction concerning physical Babylon have never been fulfilled. Babylon continued as a viable city up until the 8th century A.D. when the river Euphrates rerouted and left it sitting high and dry. Physical Babylon faded out of existence, it was never destroyed as described in the OT prophecies. On the other hand, these prophecies do aptly describe the destruction the befell Jerusalem 70 A.D.. Jerusalem is 'Mystery Babylon'.

    As I said in post 4: The identity of the Great Harlot as the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, is conspicuously obvious from other passages within Revelation, to those who are able to strip away their presuppositions and biases.

    I wasn't aware of that. Saved to file. Thanks.

    Thanks again.

    Concerning the song of Moses from my first post it says, “...so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?” Josephus comments several times that it was a pervading attitude amongst the Jews during the calamities that came upon them that it was the judgment of God, He no longer was on their side.
     
    #14 kyredneck, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  15. Robert Snow

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    At this time I will only offer one thing. I don't have time to do any more.

    I believe this is a future event:

    Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)
    1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
     
  16. HankD

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    This has been the ongoing difficulty with the Book of Revelation where different groups of different persuasions take some things literally and other things as spirtual or as a metaphor or an allegory myself included.

    e.g. some would take ".....the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" as literally meaning Jerusalem while rejecting the idea of a literal meaning of the one thousand years of Revelation 20.

    My own thought is encapsulated in the "mystery" part of the meaning "mystery Baylon".

    That "mystery Babylon" speaks of a principalities and wickedness in hgh places. To me "mystery Babylon" is the hitherto unrevealed principality of the antichrist which has been developing since Nimrod the founder of the city of Babel.

    Nimrod, who taught men to "take heaven" by human effort rather than the prescribed way of vicarious blood atonement,

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

    Actually, Christ's death is a collaboration of both Rome and Jerusalem (Israel being the occupied possession of Rome from 63BC to AD 636).​

    Acts 4
    27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
    28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.​

    Both Rome and Jerusalem desiring His death. Which death was not possible without the nod of Pontius Pilate the representative of Caesar, the Emporer of Rome.

    But it goes further than that in that I believe "mystery Babylon" is that "spiritual principality" of Ephesians 6:12, the seat of antichrist, the man of sin (satan incarnate) who has yet to manifest on earth who will cause all of the inhabited earth to worship him.

    Tom, glad to see you brother, where have you been?

    HankD
     
  17. Logos1

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    Why Covenant Jerusalem is the Babylon of Revelation

    Thanks to kyred and Tom for their excellent input and good to see HankD again even though we sometimes differ on interpretation.

    Still more evidence that applies specifically to Jerusalem is verse 16:19 where it says the Great City was split into three parts. Not even counting the Romans marching on Jerusalem, the city itself was divided into three warring parties struggling for control within the city. Although the Romans conquered the city in three parts so it could also reference this type of division.

    And more evidence is the use of the term “the Great City.” Verse 11:8 “And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified” How could anyone doubt the reference to the great city here is Jerusalem since it is the only city where the Lord was crucified. Direct precedent is established for using the term the great city which links Babylon the great city found in 18:21 back to 11:8.

    You might well ask why Jerusalem would be referred to as Babylon. Read Jeremiah 51 and you might well be amazed at how much of Revelation echoes this chapter. There is no better example to draw from in the OT to compare the fate of Jerusalem 70 AD to than the fate of Babylon as described in the 51st chapter. If John wanted to describe the fate of Jerusalem to his audience which would have been familiar with the Scripture of their day this is the place to find similarities.

    Some examples: Jesus even seems to echo v. 45 and v. 6 when he tells people to come out of Jerusalem. V. 26 you will become desolate forever, v. 24 he will repay Babylon, v. 29 make Babylon an uninhabited land, v. 37 Babylon will become a heap of rubble, v. 55 The Lord is going to devastate Babylon. These are just a few examples the whole chapter has a nuance familiar to Revelation.

    Tarring Jerusalem with the negative associations of Babylon would be an excellent way to drive home God’s anger at Jerusalem.

    Many people want to make Babylon out to be Rome, but they are getting mixed up in the symbolism of Revelation to the point of total confusion. Babylon and the Harlot are the ones who slay the Saints. The beast (Fourth kingdom -Rome of OT prophecies) is the one which devours the Harlot and destroys her. Rome is not Babylon, Rome destroys Babylon.

    Finally, back to the matter of the Covenant. The Jewish people are the only ones that God specifically entered into a covenant relationship with as a specific people—see Ex. 24:3 – 8. There is no specific covenant with the Roman Catholic church nor the city of Rome nor Italians specifically as there was the Jews. Without having a covenant relationship the bible wouldn’t describe anyone as being a harlot or prostitute. Only the city of Jerusalem would have the means to make a harlot out of itself.
     
  18. HankD

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    I'm not sure we vary in interpretation that much.

    My view elevates geographical Jerusalem and the Judaism of Christ's time to an alliance with satan's antichrist religion which began with Nimrod and his city of Babel teaching that heaven could be had by the efforts of man:

    Involving a denial of the messiahship of Christ as well as His humanity and His hypostatic union with the Father.

    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

    1 John 2
    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (meshiach)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.​

    1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​


    For expediency's sake the leadership of Judaism collaborated with heathen idolatry (Roman pantheon) to destroy (or so they thought) Christ and defeat His mission, not realizing that His mission was two-fold, 1) the blood atonment - Savior, 2) Conquerer - Lord of lords and King of kings.

    God working "behind the scenes" to accomplish His will through them.

    Acts 4
    27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
    28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.​

    Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.​


    Where we differ, I believe, is that in my view (and others) antichrist (satan incarnate) has yet to manifest himself to the world and that "mystery Babylon" has a very real and spiritual component which transcends geography.

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​


    HankD
     
  19. J.D.

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    I heard Dr. Gentry refer to the book of revelation as "The Divorce of Israel". I think he said that would be the title of his commentary once it's published. He also has a "Made Easy" series - is that related to the title of this thread?
     
  20. menageriekeeper

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    marking.......
     

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