Idolatry to assist in finding a new pope.

No - but lets not get stuck on what "Gods Word" said when we can simply "make stuff up" if it "sounds ok".

Toss out that "sola scriptura" idea - and just go with whatever makes you feel good or whatever makes the RCC "feel good".

I myself prefer the "details" of the Word of God.

Some here - avoid them like the plague.

That means we need to "notice" that in the Bible there is NO PRAYING TO the dead.

That means that "in the Bible" we need to "notice" that there is no "DEAD praying FOR the living"!

At least "Some" need to notice that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It's in the Apocrypha - 2 Maccabees. Now, you may not regard the book concerned as canonical, but it is evidence that by Jesus' time, this was Jewish practice and custom. And yet neither Jesus nor any of the NT writers condemn this practice; you would have thought that if they felt as strongly on the subject as you obviously do that they would have said something, but no. Not a sausage

Anyway, if you believe in eternal life for Christians, they're not dead! Or maybe you don't...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Well - although I KNOW that the apocrypha was never included in the Hebrew OT - in this case the statement is ALSO true of the apocrypha!

There has never been a single quote from 2Maccabees listed here that SHOWS anyone actually praying TO the dead!

But if there ever is one - I will be sure and copy it off for my files. And send the updated document to the publishers of the Oxford Apocrypha so they can update their manuscript as well.

Please show that to be true.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But the LXX contains no references to the healing power of goats.

I ask again - do you believe in eternal life for Christians?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

They are bodily dead, yes, but they are eternally alive; what fetter therefore is there on their praying for us?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

There is no mention of it in scritpure. Should we just "make it up"?

They are called "THE DEAD" for a reason in 1Thess 4 and they are called "Those who have fallen ASLEEP" for a REASON in 1Thess 4.

How many people "listen to your requests and then pray for you in their sleep"?

Your idea of communicating with the dead and asking them for favors is not unlike the point of the "RELIGION" thread also started here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Who does this verse pertain too?

Rev. 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

 

There's a world of difference between the intercession of the saints and necromancy, Bob!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! This all depends on what one believes our 'status'as believers will be post-death; do we 'sleep', are we with Jesus, are we aware of life 'down here' and its struggles? The theologian Oscar Cullmann, in 'Christ and Time' has an interesting take on that.

On the resurrection and its impact on death itself, the ultimate suffering, Cullmann says: “Everything that relates to the resurrection has to do with the redemptive history. Thus death itself, in the New Testament, is viewed entirely form the standpoint of that redemptive history, and precisely for this reason it is taken seriously, in all its horror, as the thing radically opposed to God, as the “last enemy” (I Cor. 15:26). This is the Biblical conception of death, from the Genesis story, where the way to the tree of life is barred for the first men after they have let themselves be misled into disobedience by the serpent – death is the “wages of sin” (Rom. 5:12; 6:23) – on to the last book of the Bible, the Apocalypse of John, where death is cast into the “lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14). Thus death inspires even Jesus with “trembling and horror” in Gethsemane (Mark 14:33). It is thus not at all conceived of as a “friend” and liberator from prison, nor as the “natural” transfer into another form of existence, as the Greek philosopher regards it…Resurrection faith…is only possible on Biblical ground, where all death, decay, and withering is a process that is opposed to God and is set in motion only by the sin of men. In this Biblical view, death and continued life after death do not constitute an organic natural process; rather, mighty powers stand here in conflict. When in the Bible life comes out of death, a miracle is necessary. Therefore Jesus says to the Sadducees…that they are ignorant not only of the Scripture but also of the “power of God” (Mark 12:24; cf. also Eph. 1:19f.)…Resurrection ceases to be only an object of hope; it is faith, and in particular faith in a fact, the resurrection of Christ, which has already occurred at the mid-point of time. It is no longer possible to say, “We shall arise,” without saying at the same time, “Christ has risen!” This is the new thing in the resurrection in the New Testament. The resurrection is no longer spoken of merely in the future tense, but also in the past: the resurrection of the body has already occurred! One has really risen from the dead, and indeed finally, not merely in the preliminary way in which arose the daughter of Jairus, the young man at Nain, or Lazarus, who must all die again. But this means that death is already conquered (Acts 2:24). If it was not able to hold in its power over the one man, then its power over men is broken. Even if the others must still die, yet the omnipotence of death over men is once and for all ended…through the fact that Christ is risen, he is the “firstfruits of them that slept.”…With regard also to our resurrection a different present situation has come into being through the fact that there is now one body whose substance is no longer flesh but spirit. It means something for the present that at least one resurrection body, that of Christ, already exists now. Thereby the resurrection power, the Holy Spirit, has already entered into the realm of the physical. That will happen only at the end, namely the resurrection of bodies, is already reality in Christ…To be sure, all our human rising before the end of the days is only partial; the transformation of our fleshly body into the spiritual body is reserved for the future. But this does not mean that prior to that future date the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit can be operative only in our “inner life.” Rather, according to the New Testament, the Holy Spirit operates even now upon the physical; even now he restrains, at least for a moment, the power of death, which in spite of the defeat which it has already met still continues to exercise its claim upon men; this temporary restraining of death through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit constitutes the deeper meaning of all the New Testament healings of the sick and raisings of the dead. Miracles of healing and of raising the dead belong together. Even the resurrection miracles effected by Jesus in the Gospels do not represent the final transformation of the physical body, inasmuch as what is raised is only a physical body which again is corruptible; but these raisings of the dead, like the healings of the sick, do indicate that since Christ and in Christ the resurrection power is already at work.”

The purpose of quoting the very lengthy passage above is to demonstrate the connection between the Kingdom of God, as effected by the Incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus, and as manifested in His ministry and through the Church, and its effect on pre-parousia death and its precursor, suffering. Cullmann also has an interesting, if controversial angle on a topic that frequently exercises Christians, namely what happens to Christians who die before the parousia and Resurrection of the Dead as expounded above. I am not sure I agree with that aspect of his theology; I cannot fully accept, in the light of Paul’s comments that they “sleep in Christ” (sleep is for me a pleasant experience normally and one where the perception of the passage of time is altered and frequently compressed) and that he himself wishes to go to be with Christ through death, that death should be “filled with horror.” Nevertheless, to our particular investigation, I believe that Cullmann’s contribution is invaluable.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

#1. There are more individual resurrection events recorded before the resurrection of Christ than after.

#2. ALL the recorded cases of someone being taken bodily by God "without seeing death" happen in the OT.

#3. Moses AND Elijah appear to Christ TALKING to him in Matt 17 PRIOR to the cross.

IN THAT context - it was SIN to try and communicate with the dead!!

The saints that died in the NT era are STILL called "The DEAD IN CHRIST" in 1Thess 4.

The saints who had friends die after the cross - are STILL told that they "had fallen alseep" in 1Thess 4 JUST as they were told this PRE-Cross.

The SIN of trying to communicate with the DEAD remains SIN.

But the thread on "RELIGION" suggests that the spiritist mediums would have us "re-think" all that.

The previous post here - suggests the same.

How "interesting".

As I said in the "religion" thread - this IS the wave of the future.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A rose by any other name - smells the same.

It is another name for the same thing.

That is why you see spiritism combined with Catholicism in distinctly Catholic countries in Latin America today. They view this "communicating with the dead" thing -- and the candles and the incense - as all "so much the same thing". Indeed it is.

..

 

The Catholic argument is that if you would ask your friend, your pastor, etc. to pray for you AND if you truly believe in the holy, catholic (universal) church from age to age, then why wouldn't you ask others who have since died to also pray for you?

Yes, that is different than what Protestants believe, but I don't know if it is "sad." The new pope was simply speaking Catholic doctrine.

As a reformed Christian, there are other, more distinct differences than this.

 

Actually - the likeness between this "speak with the dead because it makes sense to us" and the same idea coming from spiritist - should get someone to "wake up".

That is a HUGE leap across the chasm.

To simply go back to sleep when you see this appeal - AND when you note that EVEN the RC sources SEE how this fits in with paganism...

I just can't believe how hot the water is - and "yet" the frog does not hop!

..

"Prayers to dead ancestors" anyone?

In Christ,

Bob

 

having lived both sides of the realm, baptist as a child, 40 yrs in catholicism, realized I was baptist the whole time (rejected most of the catholic "mysteries") realized if it 's not biblical, it's not true, I have always thought that when you die you are "face to face"with Christ as long as you are "born again" and felt as a catholic that knowing the gospel, "cChirst has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again" also qualified me, but now know it'sw more than reciting that phrase, it is truly accepting Jesus Christ as your PERSONAL SAVIOR is what qualifies you as being born again. the catholic Church dnies you your personal walk with Jesus, the only time during Mass you were allowed this personal one on one prayer was after communion, and now that has been replaced with sitting in your seat and singing. Your personal time is not allowed. Oh. sorry about the tangent, back to topic, I have thought that those asleep or dead at the time of Christs return are the religious Jews that died knowing God, but not Jesus, their Messiah, which was to come once, at the end of times, which then they would know him, Jesus their, our Mssiah.

 

ps sorry abouth the typos, trying to hurry with too many words!

 

Look at who Paul is speaking to in 1Thess 4. Does he indicate in any way that the loved ones that they lost to death are from "before the cross" or are from a place "where they knew God but not Jesus"? He makes no such distinction.

And we know from 1Tim 4 and 2Thess 2:1 that Paul was dealing with a "current problem" of people saying that the resurrection was already over and the 2nd coming had already happened.

He was calming their fears about REAL friends dying at that time (Christian friends - if the DEAD IN CHRIST - as he calls them).

See the text.

In Christ,

Bob