IF A Non Cal HOW Are you Sure More Will be Saved THEN IF God Elects His own peoples?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    IF you hold that God does NOT have personal and individual Election going on, as Not "just " specific peoples are saved, but that ALL can actually get saved...

    What do you base belief on that MORE could come to Christ of their "free will' than if God did the elecing out?

    Could it actually be less would get to heaven IF we allow man ultimate resposibity for their own salvation choices?
     
  2. humblethinker

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    I'm just curious... Do you think it matters 'how many' get saved, in that will it change any of our beliefs about God's omnibenevolence or soverignty? Would it change our beliefs about Cal/Arm?
     
    #2 humblethinker, Jul 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2011
  3. sag38

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    Exactly Humblethinker. I'm beginning to hate questions asked with an agenda behind them. Seems that borders on being dishonest. I hope I'm wrong about the agenda. If not then why not state your intent up front without all the smoke and mirrors?
     
  4. Van

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    How would a person be sure more people will be saved if individual unconditional election for salvation is not going on?

    I believe individual conditional election for salvation is going on, and that when God completes His election of individuals, then Christ will return. Thus if we believers do our job and effectively help more people trust in Christ, we will actually "hasten the day" of Christ's return.

    I would be surprised if any non-Calvinist believes more people will come to Christ based on conditional election than on unconditional election.

    If pigs could fly, we might see the point in debating non-reality issues. Conditional election leaves the responsibility for that election in the hands of God.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    Think that some who are adament against cals here on BB seem to think that God is some kind of "puppet master", and that IF we trust Him to ultimatly decide the fate of all Mankind, that somehow he will make wrong choices, since we must somehow know better!

    Since we think God cannot Love people if he decided to "not' save them, so we question even IF He can fairly apply His decision making process here!
     
  6. JesusFan

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    Just trying to see if people will take their beliefs to their "logical" conclusion?
     
  7. JesusFan

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    See post # 5!
     
  8. Van

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    I do not think pigs can fly or Calvinists can present accurate representations of the views of others. You say some think or seem to think, then you present some mistaken view, seems to be your way of disparaging others. Why not address what you believe and let others present their views. What are you hiding? Everyone should know Calvinism is never represented by a clear presentation of beliefs, it is alway "if you understood Calvinism, then you would not say this." I asked does Calvinism teach everything is predestined, knowing that is what Boettner teaches, yet not one Calvinist would say yes or no. They all ran away. Whats up with that?
     
  9. Amy.G

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    Only God knows how many will be saved, so what kind of question is this? :confused:
     
  10. sag38

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    And what "logical" conclusion would that be? Why not bring your accusation out in the open rather than trying to hide it in a question?
     
  11. JesusFan

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    IF i do not have an agenda here, how can I "bring it out in the open?"
     
  12. JesusFan

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    We answered your various questions, but like in the area of God perfect knowledge, you refuse to address it based upon what cals actually believe/teach, not 'straw men!"
     
  13. Don

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    Best answer so far.
     
  14. Winman

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    Reminds me of Junior High, two fellows would get in an argument, and a group of boys would surround them to see if a fight was going to break out. But there would always be one fellow who shoved one of the arguing boys into the other to INSURE a fight broke out.

    Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
    17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    Folks are getting played like a musical instrument around here.
     
  15. JesusFan

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    I would have to disagree, see it more like "iron sharpening Iron!"
     
  16. Van

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    ROFLOL, Jesusfan!

    We answered your questions? Who is we. Why not "I answered the question of does God predestine everything and the answer is yes.

    But instead you claimed someone unnamed in a thread unnamed in a post unnamed had answered it. ROFLOL
     
  17. JesusFan

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    I might have to ask the HS for Him to "interprete" this message to me!

    What was being said again?
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    How would a person be sure more people will be saved if individual unconditional election for salvation is not going on?

    I believe individual conditional election for salvation is going on, and that when God completes His election of individuals, then Christ will return. Thus if we believers do our job and effectively help more people trust in Christ, we will actually "hasten the day" of Christ's return.

    I would be surprised if any non-Calvinist believes more people will come to Christ based on conditional election than on unconditional election.

    If pigs could fly, we might see the point in debating non-reality issues. Conditional election leaves the responsibility for that election in the hands of God.
     
  19. InTheLight

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    AND

    Here are two strawman arguments in the same thread! Where did anyone say that more people would come to Christ of their own free will rather than by election? And where has anyone said that we know better than God and can't trust him?
     
  20. Rippon

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    Historically I don't think there is any tension between what Arminians and Calvinists believe on this matter. Arminians have always held that only the elect are saved as have the Calvinists.

    Any sound-thinking Arminian would affirm that only those whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the world was formed are ultimately the only saved ones.

    Any aberration from the above is a recent and largely BB-oriented fringe group.
     

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