If a person cannot come to God unless God draws him does this mean that....

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, May 15, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    those which never found to God had no chance cause God did not draw them? :eek:
    I mean somehow this is not so easy. Why are you a christian? Would you say you are only a christian because of His mercy? Or would you say you are a christian because you're not as blind as the others? I think saying this would sound arrogant. Isn't it His grace which makes us become christians? Who could attribute his conversion to himself? But if it all depends on God then why doesn't he simply soften the hearts of everyone? I mean sometimes you hear stories of miracles which God did for unbelievers and then they repented and then I think "If God did such a thing for unsaved people which I know they would most likely also repent and get saved, so why doesn't he do it?" :confused:
     
  2. JackRUS

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    God hardens some people's hearts because when He gives them light they reject because they love their sin more.

    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:19-21

    It is a willful choice to reject God and His Word (John 12:48).

    If you willfully seek Christ and His righteousness, then He will give you more light and open up the meaning of the Gospel to you.

    I suggest that you read the Gospel of John and prayerfully ask God to open His Word and to you and to reveal Jesus to you. And don't worry about anyone else at this point. That is a trick of the devil.
     
  3. Briguy

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    This in a very tough and debatable topic. I would not base such an important doctrine on one little section of verses but I will say the verses below make a compelling argument that Gentiles are chosen. The Bible says there is an "elect". If I run for office, people vote for me and I get "elected". To be elected to Heaven people can't vote, only God can. If God votes for me I win and I go to Heaven. If He doesn't vote for me I do not go to Heaven. Could it be that basic?? It is very much worth studying. Scripture and experience can be looked at with this issue. We all know families where the children were raised exactly the same. The Word of God was given to the kids at an early age and the parents were good faithful Christians. In a home like this with four kids, 2 may be saved and walking with the Lord and the other 2 may not be saved and live as they don't know the truth. What happens in cases like that? Could it be that God ordained 2 but not the other 2? I am not saying I firmly believe this but again it is worth looking at. Believing election like this, at least for Gentiles, helps makes sense out of many other hard to accept Christian doctrines, like infants dying for example. Anyway, I included the KJV and NASB below for clarification. Interesting stuff.

    KJV
    [46] Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    [47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
    [48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    [49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

    NASB
    46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you (CU)first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, (CV)we are turning to the Gentiles.
    47"For so the Lord has commanded us,
    '(CW)I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A (CX)LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
    THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"
    48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying (CY)the word of the Lord; and as many as (CZ)had been appointed to eternal life believed.
    49And (DA)the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Good "eek" statement.

    Fortunately we have John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto ME".

    And in John 16 we have the "Spirit of Truth will convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    And in Rev 3 we have "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"

    And in John 1 we have "HE is the light of the WORLD - that comes into the World and ENLIGHTENS EVERY ONE of mankind"!

    For "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave..." Yes "really"!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Now having posted that - I have no doubt that thare are traditions that would seek to "Downsize" those wide open - vast Gospel promises to be a bit more "restrictive" and employ "arbitrary selection instead" - but as for me and my house - we believe them as they stand in scripture!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    This is actually one of the drivers that led to my posting the "Calvinist future scenario" vs the "Arminian future scenario" where in EACH case a godly parent goes to heaven but then discovers that a child, a precious loved one - did not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. pituophis

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    God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy and He hardens who He wants to harden. The way Clavinists speak of God is almost as if He is ....God or something. Yes He is God and He can do what He wants, when He wants, and He needs not answer to anyone! Is it tough and difficult to hear. Yes, some of it because it goes against the way we would design it. The way we define love, etc... But His ways are not our ways and our ways not His.
     
  8. Eric B

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    Except that our concept of Love comes from Him (we do not live up to it, but we know what it is), and "He hardens whom He will harden" is comparing Israel to Pharaoh (in contrast to spiritual Israel consisting of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ), no talking about why specific indviduals don't believe.
     
  9. Claudia_T

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    The Bible says God hardened the heart but in other places it says Pharoah hardened his own heart.

    Ex:8:15: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

    God never actually hardens anyones heart outright. He gives people light and when the light is rejected, the heart is hardened.

    Its the same as when the Bible says in one place that God "repented" of something but then in another place it says God never repents of anything. It is a figure of speech.

    The Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and in order to accomplish his purpose, God continued to give him greater and still greater manifestations of his power. Buit the king was stubborn and each time he refused to listen, it became harder and harder because of pride.

    God never urges any one on in wickedness. He never leads man to become desperate in his rebellion. He wants all to be saved. But God oesnt force anyone.

    If, after bearing long with a man, God sees that he will not submit, he leaves him to work out his hatred. He gives him up to his own self.

    God said to the Pharaoh, "I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." Exodus 4:21. There was no supernatural power that God used to harden the heart of the king.

    God gave to Pharaoh evidence of divine power, but he stubbornly refused to heed the light. Every time God did this, it rendered him the more determined in his rebellion.

    God gives us light through His servants. When we refuse to listen to warnings, and rebukes of sin, we become fixed in our rebellion. God gives us opportunity to see our errors but if we refuse He leaves us to our own way.

    He finds it more easy to repeat the same course. He is hardening the heart against the influence of the Holy Spirit. A further rejection of light places him where a far stronger influence will be ineffectual to make an impression.

    Every resistance, blinds his eyes, and stifles conviction. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. many. As Pharaoh resisted the truth, the Holy Spirit was withdrawn, and he was left to the darkness and unbelief which he had chosen.
     
  10. Matt Black

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    If the Calvinists are right, then my major problem with that is that it doesn't square with God being Love - if God has the power to save all men, and yet chooses to save only some, knowing that the remainder will go to eternal punishment as a result of no decision they've made then that makes Him morally no better than a guy who sees two children drowning, can save both, and yet chooses to only save one.
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    Good morning. First of all, I am not Calvinist. I understand John 6:44 well. Christ said, no one can come to Him. Why? Because, His Father in heaven which hath SENT him to draw person. It speaks of Calvary. God MANIFESTED the world by sent His Son to the world to died on the cross. That's what Calvary is for.

    We are not 'total inability' according Calvinism's one of the five points. That we are dead and cannot come to Christ, unless Christ draw us first. Of course, we all are sinners, we all failed. But, doesn't mean that we cannot come to Christ.

    Christ draws us, by died on the cross. So, we can see the gospel of calvary, what Christ died for us. So, we shall believe what He has done for us.

    What IF, Christ doesn't die on the cross, then the gospel is vain. Also, what IF Christ had not risen, the the gospel is vain. Thirdly, what IF Christ doesn't die on the cross, HOW shall we come to God????

    See? My point.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. Briguy

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    Matt, obviously this is a difficult topic. Let me ask you a question to put a little different perspective on this:

    Is it un-loving or un-just for a person to be allowed to get what they deserve?

    That question sounds kind of harsh but may be the bottom line of the issue. I will let you respond before I say more. Thanks. Remember also that we have the scripture I posted earlier from Acts that we have to contend with.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  13. Matt Black

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    Let me answer that by asking a different question: suppose both my drowning children were in the water and in difficulty because of their own stupidity, would I still be moral in letting one drown?
     
  14. Briguy

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    Matt, you can't answer a question with a question. I will however answer yours in hopes that you will then answer my question.

    No, as I view the world it would not be moral for you to let one of your children drown, regardless of the circumstances. I think we have a human obligation to help others in need the best we can.

    OK, your turn.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  15. Matt Black

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    Then how much more so God; if we are indeed made in His image and He is perfection to our imperfection then what is right for us to do must also surely be right, if not more so, for Him likewise ("If you, then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father Who is in Heaven..." - Matt 7:11a)
     
  16. xdisciplex

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    But if God draws all men then this would mean that we are saved because WE allowed ourselves to be drawn while others didn't, this sounds like we can attribute our salvation to ourselves and even show off with it saying: Well, I am saved because I am not like the others I allowed God to draw me.

    Isn't this also arrogant? I mean I wouldn't attribute my salvation to myself or claim that I was more open to God than others are because this would mean that I give myself the glory. But on the other hand the problem is that when I say that I'm only saved because God has drawn me to himself then somebody else might say: If God had drawn me then I would also have been saved but he didn't.
     
  17. StefanM

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    But the universalist could just as easily reply that it is morally reprehensible for God to refuse to save even those who have willfully rejected the truth, when it would clearly be within his power to do so.

    BTW, I'm not a Calvinist.
     
  18. Alcott

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    "No one can come to God unless God draws them."
    I'm sure God is the best artist at drawing Wanted posters there is. I hope he drew mine.

    And I hope it is well with my soul. If all one has to get water out of a well is a rope and bucket, then water still does not come out of that well unless the person draws it out. Sin is like gravity, and keeps in the deep well of muck and mire unless God draws us out. "Once saved; always saved" evidently comes down to whether there is a hole in God's bucket.
     
  19. xdisciplex

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    Um. Where is the difference between a person which is drawn by God and says yes to God and a person which is drawn and says no?
    Is the person which said yes "better"? Can this person say: I said yes, because I am not as dumb as those which said no and my heart is not as hard as the hearts of these people? I mean where is the difference? If God draws all people and not all get saved then this would mean that the christians could say to the unsaved that it's their own fault that they aren't saved like them.
     
  20. Alcott

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    That would be salvation by works.

    That would be salvation by intelligence.

    That would be salvation by screening process. But maybe salvation by grace through faith is, too. After all, Jesus' own "fishers of men" description and the spectacle in action-- throwing the net into the water and catching so many fish the boat is about to sink-- whether the fish get 'caught' depends on if they're big enough to not slip back through the net.
     

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