IF CALVINISM IS TRUE, WHY AREN'T ALL BELIEVERS CALVINISTIC?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jul 30, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Calvinists believe that God irresistably causes men to believe Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, but yet somehow He just can't make them believe the Calvinistic doctrine of salvation? How can that be?

    Either non-Calvinistic believers aren't true believers, or Calvinists must concede the point that God wants non-Calvinistic believers around for a reason. [​IMG]

    Which is it and why?
     
  2. Tumbleweed

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    Ah, dear brother, we have no problem at all conceding such a thing. Truth is often best appreciated when contrasted with error, as a diamond is best displayed upon black velvet. ;)

    I realize that factional arrogance is always a danger to us, and no doubt the Lord will one day present me with quite a list of things I got wrong in this life, for over the years, He has already brought me to many U-turns. However, one of those U-turns was from Arminianism to the doctrines of His wonderful grace, and I cannot imagine why He would ever turn me again to dishonour Him, which is what I truly believe Arminianism does.

    Spurgeon once read a book by a recently deceased Methodist minister, in which the writer referred to CHS as "a rank Calvinist, but a good man." Spurgeon said, "I was pleased to find that I was a good man, and I was equally pleased to find that I was a rank Calvinist. I believe he is one too, now that he has gone to Heaven. There may be Arminians on earth, but they are not so after they get there." Amen

    - Paul
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    I guess your question can be turned right around at you, Skandelon.

    If Arminianism is true, then why aren't all believers Arminians ?
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Maybe they are ... :D
     
  5. dianetavegia

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    Maybe they are ... :D </font>[/QUOTE]I hope that's not a joke implying that those of us who are not Calvinist's are not saved. :(


    Diane
     
  6. UMP

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    Skandelon, perhaps this is the answer:

    Romans 11: 33-36 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
    Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Especially Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace are not Doctrines of Grace, but of disgrace. They are the extension of Martin Luther and John Calvin's Romanism that remained in the hearts and minds of these apostates, which has polluted the Christian Churches.
     
  8. UMP

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    Ray Berrian writes:
    "Especially Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace are not Doctrines of Grace, but of disgrace. They are the extension of Martin Luther and John Calvin's Romanism that remained in the hearts and minds of these apostates, which has polluted the Christian Churches."

    If God chooses to save only 2 souls, please show me how He would be unjust in doing so.
     
  9. Monergist

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    All believers ARE Calvinists; some just don't know it.

    Packer's Intro
     
  10. npetreley

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    Maybe they are ... :D </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    I fail to understand why Calvinists think you have to be either a Calvinist or an Arminian. Half of either group will call themselves a 3 point, 2 point, 5 point whatever which to me means you're not what you think you are! All or nothing.

    I'm neither. In fact, if you asked the 1000 plus members of my church what either of those terms really mean, I'd venture to say 99% wouldn't know.

    Diane
    A Bible'ist'
     
  12. UMP

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    diantavegia,
    I understand your point. To me, the truth is the truth, no matter what you call it. In my estimation, the bottom line is that salvation is 100% of God. Of that, I am GLAD ! Perhaps the debate, at least from my "calvinist" perspective is that Arminianism seems to take away from that 100%.
     
  13. npetreley

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    Unfortunately, I'll bet if you asked 90% of the members of many churches what the Bible says about election, predestination and free will, they probably wouldn't know that, either.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Not including Augustine and just considering John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion", the latter man is remembered as defining and refining a complete distortion of the Biblical record coming from God. His systematized ideas of theology are only one man's opinion having been first, immersed in the quasi-theology of Roman Catholicism.

    Some of us have not commingled his human distortions with Biblical truth, and have chosen to compare Scripture with Scripture, and have studied the context of what each writer has penned for our spiritual illumination, understanding and guidance.
     
  15. Tumbleweed

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    Even with all Christian courtesy and love, this can only be described as either uninformed or something intended to mislead the simple-minded. Even the most superficial student of history knows that the Reformers were uniformly Sovereign Grace in their theology, and in turn, even the most superficial student of theology knows that the doctrines of grace oppose Catholicism at every point. These things you call "the doctrines of disgrace", were at the very heart of their case against Rome, and the reason the disciples of Arminius were so strenuously resisted at Dort was that they opposed the very truths over which so much blood had been shed. Arminianism strove to ensnare men once again in the Catholic idea that the Lord does not save sinners, but that He merely helps them to save themselves. For this reason, we continue to resist it today.

    - Paul
     
  16. BobRyan

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    The Calvinist God wants some of His own chosen - to expose the flaws in Calvinism.

    Hey! I thought we already agreed on that!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The Arminian acceptance of God's sovereign choice to sovereignly DRAW ALL mankind unto Him and thus enable the CHOICE to receieve Him -- because "God so LOVED the WORD" -- is the heart of scripture and never stood in the way of the reformation. (Obviously).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    In essence - Arminians believe "God so Loved the World.." Calvinists do not.

    They edit that down to "God so loved the arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7 that He was willing to call them THE WORLD".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Skandelon

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    So far we have a few Calvinists making light of the question by implying that all true believers are Calvinists (does anyone seriously hold to that view?)

    We have one (Tumbleweed) who suggested that God allow us Arminians to remain in our doctrinal darkness so as to highlight the truth of their belief. So you believe that has ordained for Arminians to walk this earth to highlight the truth of Calvinism. Is that right?

    If so, why are you here on this board trying to subvert the will of God by converting us to your dogma? It seems to me that if God wanted us to be Calvinistic He would have sovereignly convinced us of that back when we were sovereignly convinced that He was God.

    Apparently God has given believers a choice as to what they believe about their doctrine. That is evidenced in that even among Calvinists you have hundreds of various disagreements on differing issues. If its the same God causing people to believe doctrine then what could account for so many variations, unless of course only one particular variant is the "true believer" (in which case the disagreements among believers in scripture wouldn't make much sense.) So we must agree that there is an element of CHOICE involved. Right?

    So, what is it about you Calvinists that made you accept Calvinistic dogma while others have not? Are you smarter, more educated, wiser? If so, why?

    Statistics show that many more men than woman are professing Calvinists, is their something in testosterone that gives men the tendency to accept that doctrine?

    Are you Calvinists better than we are because you believe the "true doctrine?" What makes you different? What do you have that you didn't receive? And why exactly didn't we all receive it?
     
  20. Tumbleweed

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    Dear me! I mean no disrespect, but watching you guys thrashing wildly at your straw-man caricatures of Calvinism really does set me to chuckling at times. My day today has been a pastor's nightmare, but reading these last few posts has cheered me up immensely.

    I sometimes wonder if God does not smile at our ways also, just so long as we never forget what unspeakably holy things our discussions involve us in.

    - Paul
     

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