If God Were Taken To Court?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by preacher4truth, Jul 10, 2011.

  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    (God forbid) But...

    If God were taken to court by this world, for its sin and evil, would the world find Him guilty?

    He's already in court in the minds of some.

    i.e. Those who show their enmity toward Him for His ways in the OT in destroying cities (Sodom) and other peoples destroyed via His people by war, slaying of thousands with plagues, &c. They have declared Him guilty as charged.

    Each of us are aware that many in this world are angry at God over these things. His Sovereignty, that is what is called to question, to which many hate, calling God unfair, a monster & c.

    I often wonder if this will be a portion of the cause of the weeping and gnashing of teeth?

    "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41,42

    Gnashing of teeth here is a display of rage and anger. I don't believe for a minute those mentioned here are not angry at God. They already are now. Pure anger and hatred toward God for their eternal death pronounced by this Holy Sovereign?

    I believe He is also in court, in the minds of many, concerning His Sovereign power in other areas.


    - Grace and Peace
     
    #1 preacher4truth, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2011
  2. Winman

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    Don't have time to answer now, but this is a great question.

    I will say this, it is true much of the world IS angry at God, but this is due to a misunderstanding and false conception of God promoted and caused by the lies of Satan, and ALSO false teaching by men.

    later...
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

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    provocative question Bro! I also cant be here long so we will pick it up later.
     
  4. Deacon

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    Quick answer: guilty!

    The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)

    Rob
     
  5. Winman

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    I think the problem is extremes, many people do not have a BALANCED view of God. There is the one extreme, where folks put too much emphasis on the love of God. It doesn't matter what you do, God is going to forgive you, he is too nice a guy to really throw folks in hell. No real need to repent. Folks with this view do not hate God.

    Then there are folks who put too much emphasis on God's judgment. Folks see God as very angry at them, he even hates them. Step out of line and he will step on you like a bug, he will fry you forever in hell. It doesn't help that some people teach God does this for his pleasure, he gets a big kick out of destroying us. Now this is the view that makes people hate God, especially if they have been taught that they are born with a sin nature through no fault of their own and cannot help but sin. Folks see God as very unjust and unfair, creating them as sinners, and then punishing them for being the very thing he created them to be.

    If you read the scriptures, Jesus spent much time correcting both views. He taught the Jews that they weren't going to heaven simply because they were the children of Abraham. He taught that just because life was good to them did not prove they were in God's favor.

    He also corrected the other view, he taught that if our earthy father is good to us, how much more our heavenly Father? He taught that just because men were born blind or crippled did not mean God hated them. He taught that God wanted to forgive all men, even though they are terrible sinners if they would trust in him.

    It is difficult to say which extreme view is more harmful, but the view that places too much emphasis on God's judgment is the view that causes men to hate God.

    continued...
     
  6. Winman

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    continued...

    Another big problem that causes men to hate God is sin in the world. Men see war, famine, disease, crime, and all the other problems and cannot understand how a loving God could allow this.

    Satan is the one behind this misunderstanding. From the beginning he told Eve that God did not have her interests at heart. He is just this big selfish ogre that wants all the glory, and is holding back from man. He has convinced men that all the pain and hardship in the world is God's fault. He of course never mentions that he tempted Eve to sin. He convinces men they are not to be blamed for sin, after all, didn't God make you a sinner?

    This, probably more than the other reasons is why many men hate God. Satan has convinced man that sin and evil is all God's fault.
     
    #6 Winman, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2011
  7. preacher4truth

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    Very good. I agree the world would find Him guilty to their charge.

    Now, I would like this (OP) to be lost mans view of God (world) from what they know in the Bible, not some view they've gotten from some theological position, as I have met several with no church background who incriminate God solely upon His Word according to His dealings with mankind.

    We also know that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the lost lest the glorious light of the Gospel would save them.

    2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
    2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    These same persons are angry toward God.

    Is satan in the same way angry at God over His dealings? Angry about His Sovereignty?

    When these get saved will they have a different and accepting view of God in the OT that they used to hate?

    Why too do folks unilaterally who are saved, choose to have an enmity toward this side of God as in the OP?

    Why do folks hide from this?
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    I am not so certain that man hates God for sin so much, as they hate God for bad things that happen to them. Man hates to be punished for sin, but lost man loves his sin.

    Men love darkness rather than light; And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

    I think the last thing on the minds of the lost is sin. They're not too upset about this, but: General evil and wickedness? Perhaps. Sinfulness of self? Not so much. Do they hate the effect that sinfulness has on this world in disease, pain, suffering? Certainly. But they love their sin, therefore they hate to see God punish sinful man as in their OT hatred toward God in His Justice.

    Lost man wants sin, without consequence. They hate Gods judgment upon man and blame Him. There will still be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the end, when punished for their own sin, angry at God.

    Remember, Jesus delivered us from this darkness that lost man loves:

    Eph_5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

    Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    1Th_5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    Man is angry at God over His judgment upon sin, but they still personally love sin. The only One they want punished for sin is God, yet not for ones own sin.

    - Peace and Grace
     
    #8 preacher4truth, Jul 10, 2011
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  9. Tom Butler

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    ,

    No doubt you're right, but this begs the question: Can any lost person have a balanced view of God? Absent the Word of God, and the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit, we would all find ourselves off base, lost or saved, I think.
     
  10. Baptist boy

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    Wasn't he already found guilty in court or was it innocent because Pilate did this:

    When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it- Matthew 27:24

    Either way if he was brought to court he would be found guilty by the world but the World is not the judge of God. God is the Judge of the World.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Yes. The world hates God because they don't want to submit to God's authority. It's all about I, me, my.....

    Here's where it starts (IMO):

    Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


    God should be honored simply because He IS God. He should be thanked for all He has given, but people don't because they are their own god and believe they know better than the only true God, which leads to even more foolish thinking.
     
  12. Winman

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    True, unsaved men are not sure what the truth is, but some want to know, regardless of what some teach.

    Simply Google "I hate God" or "I hate religion" and you will find many revealing sites. I have visited these sites out of curiousity just to see how unsaved people think.

    To my surprise, many people, even atheists, do not hate God, but rather hate organized religion and how it portrays God. What is truly surprising is how some self-professed atheists quote scripture as though they believe scripture, but often see Christians themselves as hypocrites who do not practice what they preach.

    I do not say this as an insult, but state as fact that many non Christians find Calvinism especially hateful. Some are amazingly knowledgeable of TULIP, and find Limited Atonement and Total Depravity the most repulsive of these doctrines. People especially hate the ideas that men are born sinners who cannot help sin, and yet are punished eternally for being what they were created to be, but they also find it repulsive that God would elect only a few and pass by the majority of mankind to be cast into the lake of fire. Many unsaved people utterly reject these ideas and therefore reject Christianity.

    If I were not on a cell phone I would copy and paste many links to show I am not saying this out of bias, it is truth.

    It is also true that many people hate God simply because they do not want anyone to rule over them, but I think it important to distinguish between these and those who do not seem to hate God, but rather hate organized religion.
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    Obviously Pilate could only do what God determined Him to do, under His authority;

    Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11

    Pilate found himself innocent (or claimed innocency of self), but not Christ. He then is also guilty, but not as severely as he who delivered our Lord into his hands.

    Such is the world, claiming themselves innocent, and sentencing our Just and Holy God.

    - Peace
     
    #13 preacher4truth, Jul 10, 2011
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  14. preacher4truth

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    When you get off your cell phone then supply this.

    Almost every post turns to your hatred of the truth of the DoGs.

    Also, to hate organized religion is to hate the Bride of Christ, as He organized it.
     
  15. Winman

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    Years ago I heard a pastor say, "I always listen to criticism, because there is always a grain of truth in every criticism."

    Now, I perfectly agree with you that people love their sin and this is the primary reason they hate God. This is scriptural, this is what Jesus himself said. But there is also truth that many people hate God, or how they perceive God, from what they have been taught.

    Calvinism is not alone, you can find folks who hate every denomination for one reason or another, but the reasons I posted above are very real, and if you spend any time reading posts of why people hate God you will come across what I mentioned above.

    I live in New England, it is probably 90% Catholic. I can tell you that many, many people hate Catholicism. I am not talking about Protestants hating Catholicism, I am talking about people that were raised Catholic. Many of them despise their own church. I do not know all the reasons why, but I think one reason is guilt. The Catholic church is known to impose much guilt on it's members, and has always used guilt as a form of control. Folks can only handle so much of this. You also have the sexual abuse problem today, this has destroyed the faith of many Catholics in their church. They see the priests as evil hypocrites. And the truth is, they are.

    So, these are not folks who hate God per se, they hate religion. If you were to ask them, some might say they hate God. But if you get in a conversation with them you often find out it is really religion, or how religion portrays God that they hate.

    You can't just blow off people's criticisms. It is important to listen to people when they tell you why they hate religion or God. Oftentimes you will find these folks have many false ideas about God that were implanted in their mind by a church they attended, or what they were taught as a child. Sometimes this will open the very door to tell them the gospel and they will receive Christ and be saved.

    Edit- I remember a thread here recently about IFB churches. Now I belong to an IFB church and always have, and I have been happy. But some folks see extremes in these churches, women not allowed to wear pants, no drinking, etc... Some folks develop an intense hatred for churches like this. And I can agree, if a church becomes legalistic, it can truly turn people off. And some folks will leave a church like this and never have anything to do with church or religion again. Not because God is bad, but because they attended a church that was extreme. These things are real, we see posts here like this on a fairly regular basis.
     
    #15 Winman, Jul 10, 2011
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  16. preacher4truth

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    Cool. Can we have the many links now?
     
  17. Winman

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    #17 Winman, Jul 10, 2011
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  18. preacher4truth

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    Brother, these foolish ones are spouting all kinds of nonsense and accusations against calvinist brethren that have no basis. Ad hominem strawman infestation and nothing more.

    They prove the point of the OP. They hate God for His Sovereignty and for His slaying of some in the OT and say that calvinists inturn, love this God, whom they hate. In other words, how could God be God and do these things, and how could one ever justify it.

    Basically? They are judging God and dragging He and those who love them into court and charging them both as guilty.

    This is proving my point in the OP. They charge God foolishly, and those who love Him in the same way.

    - Peace
     
  19. Winman

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    Now, here is a fellow who hates Martin Luther. Truth is, he has some legitimate reasons for doing so.

    Notice that very last line. This man lumps all Christians together because of the beliefs of one very famous Christian. The world is not totally ignorant of Christianity as some might imagine, some know more about the church than believers.
     
  20. Winman

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    On the contrary, if you read that article, this fellow knows quite a bit about Calvinism. I believe he went to a Reformed College (I seem to have seen that in one of his articles).

    Edit- Here is what he said:

    So, as you see, this fellow is not speaking from utter ignorance on this subject.

    You need to learn to accept criticism. I am not saying this fellow himself is not extreme and probably exaggerates DoG doctrine, but what I am saying is his hatred for God and religion is fueled by what he HAS been taught and learned.
     
    #20 Winman, Jul 10, 2011
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