If Judas's betrayal of Jesus was essential to the divine plan, was it actually an act

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Crabtownboy, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
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  2. Deacon

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    This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all.
    So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth.
    But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

    1 John 1:5-7 NLT

    Judas' act of betrayal was done in darkness; God used it to bring light to the world.

    You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people.
    Genesis 50:20 NLT

    Rob
     
  3. Crabtownboy

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    Rob, but was what Judas did God's will for his life?
     
  4. Deacon

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    Fidelity: n
    1 : the quality or state of being faithful
    2 : the degree to which an electronic device (as a record player, radio, or television) accurately reproduces its effect (as sound or picture)

    syn fidelity, allegiance, fealty, loyalty, devotion, piety mean faithfulness to something to which one is bound by pledge or duty. fidelity implies strict and continuing faithfulness to an obligation, trust, or duty 〈marital fidelity〉. allegiance suggests an adherence like that of citizens to their country 〈pledging allegiance〉. fealty implies a fidelity acknowledged by the individual and as compelling as a sworn vow 〈fealty to the truth〉. loyalty implies a faithfulness that is steadfast in the face of any temptation to renounce, desert, or betray 〈valued the loyalty of his friends〉. devotion stresses zeal and service amounting to self-dedication 〈a painter’s devotion to her art〉. piety stresses fidelity to obligations regarded as natural and fundamental 〈filial piety〉.
    Merriam-Webster, Inc. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Eleventh ed. Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003.

    Was Judas faithful?
    Was he loyal?

    "[L]oyalty implies a faithfulness that is steadfast in the face of any temptation to renounce, desert, or betray"

    For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”
    Matthew 26:24 NLT

    The question of God's will is another matter, dealing with predestination :eek:
    Those matters concerning others are best left in God's hands.

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Nov 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2008
  5. 4His_glory

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    Yet God gives us a mind, and we are to seek to understand His word. Clearly it was God's will for Judas to betray Christ. But God did not approve of his sin and held him responsible for it. God can do this because He is God.

    This is a classic example of God's will of command and His will of desire.
     
  6. Crabtownboy

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    Kind of makes you feel sorry for Judas if you are correct. Was God's will, but Judas is condemned for doing God's will.
     
  7. Palatka51

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    Did not Peter do much the same thing? Judas killed himself before Jesus could work reconciliation. Peter denied Him three times with cursings. Yet Peter was still available to be reconciled. Judas saw his dire estate and refused to be reconciled even though he repented unto himself.

    Let's face it as ourselves.

    How many times has God let us slip and do that which is not godly?

    How many times has God brought repentance and worked reconciliation with us?

    Speaking for myself, I say daily.

    Good discussion Crabby. :thumbs:
     
  8. Crabtownboy

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    It would be very interesting if Judas had repented. I believe he would have found forgiveness.

    Yes, I identify with you Palatka51, I also need to repent daily.
     
  9. Palatka51

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    Saul was a similar character. Thinking that he was doing God's will he persecuted the Church. Jesus appeared unto him and worked with him to be the greatest witness to the Gentiles. Had Judas not hung himself I can just imagine the witness that he might have been. Yet God is all knowing and His allowing Judas to kill himself is beyond our understanding.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    The idea that Judas was simply being obedient by betraying Jesus is ridiculous. But it is not surprising coming from the Emerging Church.

    There is not one place in scripture that indicates such. Judas is to be pitied because he will forever remain in hell. But he is by no means a victim of God's plan. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Crabtownboy

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    The question is, was Judas doing God's will?

    If so, why do you think so?

    If not, why did he do it?
     
  12. Palatka51

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    Yep, what he did he did willingly. He has none to blame but himself.
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    To me, the question of how to resolve God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is a mystery. Yet, the scripture is clear that both are true.

    Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel, and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain,...."

    It is clear from this and other passages that Jesus' crucifixion was determined from the foundation of the world. There is no possibility that it would not happen.

    Those who carried out the crucifixion did exactly as they desired, thus Peter described them as wicked. There is no possibility that it did not occur exactly as planned from the foundation of the world.

    How God incorporated the choices of wicked men into his plan is beyond our understanding. But to deny that He did is deny God's sovereignty, and attribute all that happened in the redemption story as dumb luck--or fatalism.

    Paul, in Romans 9, anticipated the same question implied in the OP

    9:18 Therefore he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will, he hardeneth.
    9:19 Thou wilt say then undo me, Why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted his will?

    The objection then is, if Judas's betrayal was simply carrying out God's will, wasn't he just being obedient?

    Essentially, Paul's response was, can't the Potter do what he wills with the clay, and if he can, which he can, who are you to question what he does?

    None of this is to resolve God's sovereignty with man's responsibility, but it does affirm both.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    Sorry. You did not frame it that way. You spoke in the op about fidelity. Then you being the one who started the op later suggested that we should feel sorry fro the position God put Judas in.

    Scripture in no way indicates Judas was doing God's will in his betrayal. But it makes it clear that Christ was doing the Fathers will in submitting to the betrayal.

    Judas did not have to be doing God's will in order for God's ultimate plan to be fulfilled.
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    Sorry. You did not frame it that way. You spoke in the op about fidelity. Then you being the one who started the op later suggested that we should feel sorry fro the position God put Judas in.

    Scripture in no way indicates Judas was doing God's will in his betrayal. But it makes it clear that Christ was doing the Fathers will in submitting to the betrayal.

    Judas did not have to be doing God's will in order for God's ultimate plan to be fulfilled. What man and Satan means for evil God can use for His glory regardless if it is his will or not.
     
  16. webdog

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    Permissive will, yes...decretive will, no. I don't see how we can take "it would have been better for him (judas) to have never been born" and intertwine it with determinism.
     
  17. TrustingInHim

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    I wonder if it works like this....Judas, like all of us, was depraved and sinful, no light in him at all without the Lord in his heart. So without God's intervening grace, he was destined to commit horrible sinful acts. God, did not give grace to prevent Judas from doing this deed - He allowed Judas to go the course that all sinful men have the capacity to go. God is sovereign, he chose to intervene in Saul's life, etc. He chose not to stop Judas.
     
  18. Marcia

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    God used Judas and Judas' desire to betray Jesus. God knew from eternity that Judas would be born and want to betray Jesus. Judas was totally responsible for what he did, and he had remorse but did not repent.

    I think the way God works through events and people is so far beyond our comprehension, we must look to scripture to keep from getting our brains twisted inside out! We know God does not want men to do evil and at the same time we know God uses men who do evil and turns those acts around for His glory. It is a conumdrum that we can't solve.
     
  19. blackbird

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    Most interesting post, TIH!!

    EJ Daniels has a sermon titled

    "Judas: The man who kissed Heaven's Door and went to Hell"
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Many examples of this are found in scripture. Here are two more:

    2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

    Does this mean that Absalom is not responsible for his acts?
    Did God raise up this evil? Yes.
    Was Absalom and Amnom responsible for their acts? Yes.

    Another:

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
    Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

    God sends the Assyrian army to punish Israel.

    Yet then punishes the Assyrian King for doing what God willed him to do:

    Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

    Did God send the Assyrian Army to punish Israel? Yes.
    Did God punish the Assyrian King for doing what God willed him to do? Yes.

    Did God ever violate the free will of Absalom, Amnon or the King of Assyria? No, they did just as their evil hearts desired yet in doing so accomplished the will of God.

    Isn't God's Sovereignty great!:praying:

     

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