If Obama & Bush are Wormongers, What is God?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by righteousdude2, Dec 10, 2009.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    Just a thought that was provoked from several responses I received from on mu post about Obama's speech at the Nobel Prize presentation.

    If Bush, Obama, and other presidents are warmongers, how does their preference for war differ from that of God? After all, God did order/authorize an awful lot of killing through declared wars throughout the Old Testament?

    I'm curious to know if those who see Obama and Bush as warmongers classify God as a warmonger too?

    And, while this question may belong in a different forum, it is still a political hot potato, considering our nation is almost always in some kind of war, and spiritually, God displayed a penchant to bring war, both against and upon His Chosen people throughout Biblical history.

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul:type:
     
  2. KenH

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    Two questions.

    1) How many wars has God authorized/ordain Christians to initiate since the cross? No, God is not a warmonger like George W. Bush, Barack Obama, et al, are.

    2) What is a wormonger? Sounds like a character from something like "Lord of the Rings". :smilewinkgrin:
     
  3. canadyjd

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    Well, I havn't called anyone a warmonger, but comparing people to God is always a bad idea.

    Let's see...

    God is... all knowing, infinitely righteous/pure/holy/good, supreme judge of every action/thought/belief taken by man, and the only One whose motives are always just and right.

    Bush, Obama, and other presidents are.... sinful human beings, subject to deception by Satan and there own sinful natures...

    So, I see lots of differences.. do you?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. KenH

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    1) True.

    2) True.
     
  5. Aaron

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    Christ commanded us to love our neighbors as ourselves. If I cannot defend my neighbor from an aggressor by any other means than going to war, then I must go to war.
     
  6. Dragoon68

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    Sovereign!
     
  7. Trotter

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    obama thinks he IS God. Does that count?
     
  8. windcatcher

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    First of all, the secular view of war and the spiritual view of war is entirely different though the war being considered might be the same.

    When the angelic rebellion was led by lucifer...... there was warfare which took place, or so I believe. As to who threw 'the first shot', I don't think it matters as the rebellion of lucifer and his minnons made him the cause of war, whether or not its author.

    When we get to the early history up to the time of Moses..... we see that in many cases man warred against man each doing what seemed right in his own eyes without the guidance of written law. Some warfare even then was fought with a sense of justice.... as when Abram fought and freed his nephew and the folks captured with him, and then refused the spoils for all who fought, except for the mercenaries which join ranks for the purpose of hire.

    When God led the young nation out of Egypt, He prolonged their passage, building up a hardness in them against the life style and softness of conveniences which they had left behind in Egypt.... and the generation which had longed to return to the slave pits and the spoils of Egypt and complained and were unthankful, were not allowed to enter the promise land. Those who did enter had nothing behind them to lure them and complain about and only hope and faith to move forward. They had seen minor skirmishes and had witnessed the judgement and power of God and were sent forth with a mandate regarding the treatment of those through whose land they might pass and the anihilation of those tribes who occupied the lands which God had given them. A difference was made between the passage through lands vs the land of inheritance. But they were suppose to obey the commands of the LORD.

    They did not follow their CIC orders and found themselves in various judgements for their folly and disobediance. But of particular and long lasting fruit was their failure to take the land God gave them when they disobeyed him by sparing people, taking spoils, marrying idolators, and making careless treaties. This began a long historical journey of rivalries based upon jealousies, old resentments, and the influence of the corrupt upon a pure governance and religion, which God had originally ordained for them. It is likely that IF THEY HAD OBEYED GOD's original orders..... they would have avoided much pain for themselves and future generations. IF THEY HAD FOLLOWED THEIR CIC, and showed unwavering determination to obediance.... barely more that a few groups of tribal combatants would have been anihilated before the remaining inhabitants got the news and testimony of these people who worshipped and obeyed THE GOD.... and fled the lands. Hence their peace and possession might have been more quickly, and the tribes around their borders more respectful of their God and more cautious in their dealings.
    While His thoughts are higher than ours..... so my answer is pitiful in such matters...... the implication, when the world asks this question about God being a God of war hints towards mans conception of what is and is not just.

    When we read the historical and Biblical account..... we see in large part the recording of man's understanding of history .... and glimpses into the working of God's providence, justice and judgement, in preserving his people..... though a stiff necked people they were to him. They people God told them to kill were a danger to His chosen, more by the seeds of deceit, and idolatry, and lust which they would sow than by the terror of their warfare which was also wicked and evilly inspired by the rebellious one who led that heavenly rebellion. On another side, the seriousness of sin's price was witnessed in repeated sacrifices of animals which the shepherds and herdsmen had carefully groomed with an affectionate care, and the slaughter of these people who would war against their taking possession of the land was a testimony both to Gods faithfulness to them and His judgement upon anyone making war against Him by their unyielding rebellion, idolatry and sinfulness.

    But His people were not complete in their obediance to God. They yielded here and there to do as they thought best, disregarding his orders. They observed and took in the surrounding culture enough that they rebelled against his authority and wanted kings like the other nations. God gave them what they wanted..... government by man as opposed to the government ordained by God. And He warned them of the expectations of men of power and authority and how they and all they had.... including their property, their young men and young women...... how they would be yoked with the adverice and ambitions of unjust men as opposed to the justice of a righteous and loving God.

    (Here, please allow me to interject that, imo, no nation has existed since Saul became the first king of Israel, which came close to what God had planned.... until our own..... by its original documents from the Pilgrims to the establishment of our government by its original constitution. And our nation is discarding God, which most of our forefathers believed in and honored, and is denying the authority of its constitution, which I do believe was inspired by God... not on the level of the Bible, but inspired in that no such perfect a document was written ever before.... nor will be again until Jesus rules.)

    Concerning the justice or the injustice of wars recent or now being fought..... truely only God knows for sure because he knows the powers behind the choices which are made in secret as well as what is reported.... and He knows the fullfillment of His purpose beyond the intended design of man or satan.

    I guess in the end, maybe it might be correct to say God is a God of War, as it is His purpose to defeat evil and rebellion and all that side against His righteousness. This is not a conflict with His compassion..... but is a limitation upon our own understanding which provokes such questions when they arise. However, He is not the author of evil or rebellion, which may be considered to be the root of war.
     
    #8 windcatcher, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2009
  9. saturneptune

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    I do not think any human being should be compared to a Holy God. Of all the people who have ever lived, George Bush and Barack Obama would be the last two.
     
  10. hillclimber1

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    delete for cause
     
    #10 hillclimber1, Dec 11, 2009
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  11. hillclimber1

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    How would you fit Saddam or Adolph or Stalin or Lenin in there?
     
  12. windcatcher

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    God is the God of War as much as God is the God of Peace.

    God is not a warmonger.........
    The definition of warmonger is a noun/ name of a person who is aggressive or agitates or creates aggitation and strife.
    The devil is a warmonger......
    The devil is the author of strife and aggression and rebellion and the ambitions and lusts which are the cause of war.
    Man can be warmongers because man can be the tool of evil to create strife and make war.

    It is not proper to characterize God in such terms....... But the world does because it is blinded by its god of deceit.. the powers of the air.... the dark forces which war against God..... and, we, as Christians, are accountable to give an answer.
     
  13. Johnv

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    Regardless of how one feels about the POTUS or about the US, I don't think it's appropriate to make comparisons between a POTUS (or any other individual) and God. God can do as He pleases. Man can't.
     
  14. David Michael Harris

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    A greater than Solomon is here.

    Geez, seems you just cannot see past your nose.

    One sword is enough.

    I really do not understand so called Christians who fail to understand the NT message.

    Read the Gospels.
     
  15. righteousdude2

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    AMEN, You Saw the LIGHT!

    You seem to have understood what I was getting at. There has always been war, and up through the birth of Jesus, God led His people into, as well as, away from many, many wars.

    How are we, as a people, to not know that God has not been supernaturally involved and intervening to lead our leaders into WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and all the wars in the middle-East? And that's just in the period of the last 100 years.

    My question remains: Does that make God a God of War, or in the eyes of a lost world, "warmonger"? One, or two posts claimed that Bush and Obama were warmongers, but, I ask, what if supernaturally, God was behind their decisions? After all, Kuwait did need saving; and, we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Then, we were bombed in New York, DC, and had a plane go down with innocent people aboard. Did we as a nation not have the right as well as the responsibility to retaliate?

    How do we not know that God was not behind the decisions to fight the good fight for the right to remain free?

    I'm not trying to be sac-religious, just asking how we determine what is a God led war versus a man made war. Or, to put it more in line with Scripture, when is it God's war, and when is it warmongering [a sin of the flesh of man]? And, who is determine which it is, and than we must ask: what standards of judgment are used to determine if it is of God, or of greed and man?

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul:type:
     
    #15 righteousdude2, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2009
  16. KenH

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    An interesting discussion.

    1) What laws of nature were suspended or overridden as we see in the Bible?

    2) I see God being concerned about man's spiritual freedom in the Bible, not political freedom. I don't recall a single democracy in the Bible.
     
  17. righteousdude2

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    That deserves an AMEN!

    At least if we had the Kingdom of God on earth, the right to the entitlement of general health care for all individuals would be a no-brainer! And, if God needed leaders to assist in running this Kingdom (LOL), we could be assured that He would not allow those leaders to have an enhanced health care program. If I understand the Word correctly, we would all be eligible for the same treatment as Children of the King of Kings. No special privileges, just Holy entitlement. :jesus:

    But, there is the possibility that with a new and improved body, through our being Glorified, who would need health care?:godisgood: That would wipe out that aspect of entitlement in one quick swipe of God's own hand! Heaven should be less complicated than earth, and our elected leaders feeble attempts at governing the people that elect them.
     
    #17 righteousdude2, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2009
  18. saturneptune

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    What, do my ears deceive me? How many posts, how many posts, have compared Obama to the above characters you listed? So, to be sure I understand this, you are now trying to create a gap between Obama and your listed leaders. Of course, if one creates a false gap between Democrats and Republicans, one is capable of anything.

    Lets ask the question in reverse, which of the five leaders listed is closer to the Holiness of God?

    Heres your sign.
     
  19. saturneptune

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    Of all the posts advocating war, I would like to know how many of you have actually experienced one. Otherwise, you have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  20. righteousdude2

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    Viet Nam was my Almost War

    I was one person from being on the plane to Nam. We lined up for role call, and the SGT. had us number off from 1 to 100. I was number 51, and at the end of the count off, the Lt. ordered numbers 1 to 50 to take one step forward.

    He said he had good news for them, and told them to grab their "duffel's" and get on the bus. They were taking the last plane to Viet Nam. The rest of us would finish [processing and catch a plane the next morning.

    Fortunately for me, I developed strep throat that night, and went on sick call to the hospital at the Presidio. While at the Presidio, I was referred to a medical examination board, for discrepancies in my medical jacket. Within a weeks time, I was back on my way to Fort Ord, and waiting for a discharge. The findings were that the medical exam I received at the induction board negligently passed me, and I was not physically able to serve due to a heart murmur. It took about another 9 months, but I was finally discharged.

    While I don't have the experience of being in a war, I have the experience of training for the war, including a week of training at the Fort Ord Viet Nam readiness training sight. Very realistic.

    I believe I know what I'm talking about, and I believe the US has fought many wars in order to keep it out of our backyards and shopping malls.

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul:type:
     

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