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If one believes that baptisim is essential for salvation, is he damned

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Stanedglass, Aug 11, 2009.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    So you are saying that a Muslim does not believe in his religion? Of course he does. He has faith. The Bible is clear that there is a false faith, or an empty faith. Even an atheist has faith. He believes that God does not exist.
     
    #41 Pastor Larry, Aug 12, 2009
  2. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    What???????

    If Jesus tells you to believe, then you believe b/c you trust in him, If Jesus tells us to Repent, then we Repent b/c our faith is in him. If he tells us to be baptized then we get baptized b/c our faith is in him. If we refuse to obey Christ, then our faith is not in him!
     
    #42 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  3. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    So what if i put my full faith in him but never confess my sins? Repentance is a part of salvation right? Wouldn't that be doing something else other than having faith?
     
    #43 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  4. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    Would you please elaborate?
     
    #44 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  5. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    The bible never said that if you believe and evangelize you will be saved...but it did say that if you believe and are baptized you shall be saved but he that believes not shall be damned!

    The bible never said that you must evangelize and be born of the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God, but it did say you must be born of the water and the spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God.

    The bible never said Repent and Evangalize for the remission of sins, but it did say Repent and be baptized everyone of you...

    And on and on it goes.
     
    #45 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  6. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    It doesn't matter what you do afterwards? WOW....tell me you don't really believe that!
     
    #46 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    That is believing there is no God. That is not faith. I do not recall Eph 2:8-9 using the term saving faith.
     
    #47 saturneptune, Aug 12, 2009
  8. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    Sorry about that I stand corrected you are right! I have another confession scripture in my head and it does not have anything to do with Salvation! I think that's in the genaric sinners prayer somewhere, that may be where I got that!

    2 Tim 1:7-8...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    I guess knowing God would be considered a work by some! And then there's that dreaded word obey in there too.

    Now we've really opened a can of worms b/c the bible now says we must have faith, we must know God, and we must obey the Gospel!

    Again thats pretty plain scripture!

    DHK I say this in the most Christian way possible (LOL Im hearing the voice of the preacher off of The Fighting Temptations movie when he said that) but people like me arn't twisting scripture and arn't throwing stones or casting judement, but we take the bible as a whole and not just one little scripture out of how many thousands and make it fit what we want believe.

    Ephesians 2, glad you quoted that, Obedience doen't = works, Obedience = Faith!

    Your the man though! I love you dude!
     
    #48 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  9. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    Amen Brother!
     
    #49 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  10. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    That's not what Thomas meant! But if you truely think it doesn't matter what you do after your initial salvation experience, you need to reconsider what the wrod of God is saying!
     
    #50 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  11. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    Going to the Gym...will catch back up when I get back...Lord Bless! Great discussion by the way!
     
    #51 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Um, belief is faith. Look it up. To say that one believes there is no God is to say that he has faith that there is no God. Faith is the noun form of the verb believe.

    I don't either. So? Other passages clearly distinguish between saving faith and false faith or empty faith or dead faith.
     
    #52 Pastor Larry, Aug 12, 2009
  13. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Of course it matters what you do after salvation, but the point I was making was that it doesn't affect your salvation. Of course, you and Thomas both know that's what I meant.
     
    #53 matt wade, Aug 12, 2009
  14. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    How does it not affect your salvation?

    Jhn 15:4-7 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
    If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


    Just for giggles I went and looked up the word Abide in the original translation and here's what I found!

    Translation: menō
    Abide:
    1) to remain, abide
    a) in reference to place
    1) to sojourn, tarry
    2) not to depart
    a) to continue to be present
    b) to be held, kept, continually
    b) in reference to time
    1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
    a) of persons, to survive, live
    c) in reference to state or condition
    1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
    2) to wait for, await one

    Strong's Number G3306 matches the Greek μένω (menō), which occurs 127 times in 105 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

    In these verses it's used as "abide, remain, tarry, abode, remaining, dwell, continue, endure, etc.

    What's facinating about this is that in every instance, It's a choice or action required of the person! It's the persons responsibility to Stay, to Endure, To remain, to tarry, to dwell.

    So in short, it's up to us to remain in Christ. Our Actions after our initial Salvation experience will dictate whether we abide or not!
     
    #54 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  15. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    I remembered what I was referring to, it's not confessing your sins, its confessing that Jesus is Lord!

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
     
    #55 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  16. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    You keep trying to work for your salvation. I'll just trust in Jesus to save me and keep me.
     
    #56 matt wade, Aug 12, 2009
  17. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    Well...you keep trusting and quit abiding and you might get cut off! Again, I say that in the most Christian way! After all I'm just repeating it!


    What did Jesus mean? Did he mean something other than abiding? I'm sure someone here knows more than Jesus...LOL but seriously though what does abiding mean to you Matt?
     
    #57 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Obeying the gospel is to believe the gospel.
    Rejecting the gospel is not to obey it.
    There is no hint of any works here.
    If I offer a gift to my daughter on her birthday she is not obligated to take it. If she receives it is not of works. It is a gift. She doesn't have to do a number of chores for it; pay money for it, mow the lawn, do the dishes, or shovel the snow. It is a free gift that she simply can receive by faith. And when she does that she receives it accepting it as an expression of my love for her. If she rejects it, it is not a work either; but it is a rejection of my expression of love for her. Now that is just a temporary gift. The rejection of God's gift of eternal life is a rejection of eternity itself.
    There is no work. Faith is not a work. We obey God by believing on the work of Christ. Christ has done all the work for us. Therefore salvation is not of works. One's faith must have the correct object, and hence doctrine. If the object of your faith is the the Muslim God--Allah, you will not reach heaven. So, yes knowledge is important. Who is the object of your faith? Is it Christ, who paid the penalty of your sins on the cross of Calvary, or is it some other god. Having a knowledge of who you trust in is a prerequisite to being saved. It is not what gets you saved. It is a red herring to this discussion. This discussion is not about world religions and cults. We are speaking about salvation within the realm of historic Christianity. If you don't know who God is, then you better start another thread.
    Are you able to define faith.
    Are you able to define the God that you must put your faith in?
    The God that you put your faith in (Christ) is the obedience that God requires you to do, and that is not a work.
    I take all Scripture and see it harmonized together. I am not the one with that problem. Here is what the Bible says:

    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    --Do you believe that salvation is of grace?
    If you do, then it is impossible for salvation to be of works.
    Baptism is a work, a work of man. Man does it; man receives it. God has no part in baptism. It is only a command of God that man obeys after he is saved. It has no part in man's salvation. Salvation is solely by grace and not of works.

    Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    --Salvation is granted to the one that does no works. Salvation is granted to the one who is justified by faith without works. The ungodly is justified by faith and faith alone, just as Abraham was. There are no works required in salvation.
    Obedience is the result of one's faith in Christ. It is the result, not the requirement.
     
    #58 DHK, Aug 12, 2009
  19. Stanedglass

    Stanedglass New Member

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    So in other words Disobediance is the result of one's disbelief or vein faith in Christ.

    If someone is not obedient do they have faith in Christ?

    We are both saying the same thing here, just worded different! But let me ask you this now: How can Jesus become the author of our salvation if we don't obey him? It seems like a requirement here! What do you gain from Heb 5:9.
     
    #59 Stanedglass, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2009
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Let's make it simple.
    The thief on the cross put his faith in Christ.
    Jesus said, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
    As far as we are concerned he was "saved," but had no chance to do any good works afterward, and certainly wasn't baptized.

    The "faith" that he put in Christ was the only "obedience" that Christ required, yet was not a work. Faith is an intangible. It is not something that is measured, or at least accurately measured like one's weight.

    The other thief continued to blaspheme Christ. It wouldn't be his bad works of blasphemy that would send him to Hell but his unbelief or rejection of Christ.
    Belief or faith in Christ is the only requirement for salvation, for salvation is a gift of God.
    Unbelief or rejection of that gift or of Christ is sure damnation.
     
    #60 DHK, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2009
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