If sinners have the Law written in their hearts...

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    ...why then the need for God to say what He did in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:7-13, and Hebrews 10:16,17?


    If the Law is alreay there in their hearts, why the need to re-write it again when He made the New Covenant?
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,378
    Likes Received:
    790
    What in the world does that mean when someone says the lost have the law written in their hearts. A very odd statement.
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    Brother Wes takes it to mean that from here:


    "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )"(Romans 2:12-15)


    What do you think Paul was expressing here?

    BTW, Brother Wes=Winman
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,378
    Likes Received:
    790
    There is some context missing here. What law is he saying is written in their hearts? Is he suggesting that man already had the OT law written on their hearts?
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    He is saying the Law is written in their hearts. I am thinking he means the whole Law, but I'll let him speak for himself....
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    Assign the 'pre-fix statement 'the hour cometh and now is', and understand. The old covenant was added which cast a shadow of the everlasting covenant behind it, and then it was removed. The 'new' covenant is new only because the first was made old.

    It's not 'the lost' that have the law written in their hearts, it's the lost sheep. It's one of many idioms for 'regeneration', or the birth from above.

    It's synonymous with 'circumcised in heart last verse of the chapter. Both are idioms for regeneration, that's all.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, not the whole law, but all mature men know BASIC law. They know it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, etc... They may not know that to lust after a woman in their heart is sin. But they know enough to be responsible before God. And this is exactly what Paul was teaching in Romans 2:12-15 and Romans 5:13-14.

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Paul here is explaining why the Gentiles who do not have the written laws of Moses die. This is speaking of eternal spiritual death, not physical as I showed Willis in another thread (see Albert Barnes).

    Paul teaches that sin is not imputed without law (Rom 5:13). So why did these men without law perish? Because they HAD a law. It was not the written law of Moses, but an inward law written on every man's heart. All men innately know right from wrong, what is just and unjust. Gentiles prove this by their code of behavior. Even in countries where the Mosaic law was unknown, they had laws they lived by, it was wrong to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc... This PROVES they had the law written on their heart, and it is this law that made them responsible before God. They have NO EXCUSE.

    This is also why men from Adam to Moses died in Romans 5:13-14.

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Many believe Rom 5:13-14 is teaching Original Sin, but nothing could be further from the truth. Paul is speaking of men from Adam to Moses ONLY, before the written law was given.

    First, Paul tells us sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Nevertheless, men from Adam to Moses (before the written law) spiritually died. This proves there was a law in the world. What law was that? It was the law written on the heart Paul had explained in chapter 2.

    Go back and read the OT before the law and men clearly knew what sin is. Pharaoh knew it was sin to have Abraham's wife.

    Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
    19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

    There was no law when this was written, and Pharaoh was not God's people, yet he knew it would have been sin to take Abraham's wife.

    And so this is why men from Adam to Moses died, because they violated and offended the natural law written on their hearts.

    Paul is not teaching Original Sin here. We know that for two reasons.

    #1 Paul clearly says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin. They did not eat the forbidden fruit with Adam in the garden being in his loins as many falsely teach. If that were so, they would be guilty of committing the same EXACT sin as Adam.

    #2 If Paul was teaching Original Sin here, then it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses ONLY. If all men are dead because we sinned "in Adam" in the garden, the law would not make a difference.

    No, Paul is proving that there was law in the world, even before the law of Moses, and the fact that men from Adam to Moses spiritually died proves this.
     
    #7 Winman, Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2014
  8. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't confuse the Mosaic Law with the Law "written upon the heart".

    When God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...
    that was the "law".

    Prior to and completely without the Mosaic Law, the simple premises:
    Do not lie
    Do not steal
    Do not commit murder
    Do not commit adultery
    Do not be a drunkard
    Do not defraud another

    etc...

    are Universal "Laws" which all men know to be moral imperatives.

    That is what is meant by the "Law" which is written upon men's heart. It is sufficient for men to understand that they are sinners and imperfect.

    You could ask any person who has never had the Scriptures if they are perfect and they know they are not. That's because basic fundamental moral imperatives are Universal. It has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law.
     
  9. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    But that really doesn't address the question of the OP. If the law is already written upon the heart of all men then why does God say He is going to do a new thing and write the law upon the hearts of men?
     
  10. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's a good question. What law do men have written on their hearts now? It is the law similar to Moses, the law of the letter, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, etc... These are the laws that all men innately understand, but these are the laws that condemn a man for his sins as well.

    So God must be speaking of a new law, different from this. I believe Ezekiel 36 gives a clue what this new law is;

    Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    This is obviously speaking of a future time when God will restore the nation of Israel to their land and give them the inheritance promised to Abraham.

    It is also clear that it is speaking of the Jews turning from the law of Moses to trust in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Only by trusting Jesus can they be washed clean from their sin, given the Holy Spirit that will give them a heart to obey God's laws.

    So, it is not the law of Moses, the law of the letter, but the law of the Spirit which Paul speaks about in Romans 8.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Christians have a new law, the law of the Spirit. We are no longer under the law of commandments, do this, do that, but under the law of the Spirit. Now we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and do those things he tells us to do.

    And simply put, there is one basic law, love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Romans 13 is a good chapter to read, as it very simply tells us how we ought to live as Christians.

    This is the new law that will be written on the hearts of the Jews, not the many ordinances and commandments of Moses.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    We see Jeremiah 31 as very similar to Ezekiel 36 and obviously speaking of the same thing.

    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    This is also obviously speaking of that time when a remnant of Israel will turn from the law of Moses and trust in Jesus as their Saviour. This will be the new law written on their hearts, and their sins will be forgiven.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe the new law is simply, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine house (Acts 16:31), because this is how we are baptized into Christ. We die with him to the law, and are raised to new life with him, never to die again. Now we are under grace.

    This is the new law God will write on the hearts of the Jews who are at this time rejecting Jesus.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    the 10 commandments are written on every man's heart but because of the fall it's like a mirror that was broken what is there but fragmented and broken Jesus in regenerating sinners restores the complete image of God and man which includes the law written on the heart but not broken
    we are now law keepers
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2014
  14. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    This is also proof that regeneration was not implemented until Jesus Christ finished His work at Calvary and was glorified.....

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The new covenant, the new heart, had not come until Christ Jesus completed His work.


    Is43:19 - "Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert."

    2Cor5:17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

    Just remember, those with the law written in their hearts are doers of the law, they worketh good, they are rendered eternal life because of their patience in well-doing.

    This is no mere namby pamby moral standard that all men have within them. This is the sort of stuff that allows one to stand justified in the judgment.

    Don't be fooled by the blinders of sola fide. Take in the context in it's entirety.
     
    #15 kyredneck, Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2014
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    That sounds like keeping the law then justifies the sinner as opposed to being justified by grace through faith.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    I've explained it to you SCRIPTURALLY before, but you reject it and choose to be willfully ignorant instead.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    kyredneck
    From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary..pg 91

    The Moral Law is epitomized in the Decalogue or Ten Commandments,
    and answers to the law ontologically embedded in man’s nature at creation as
    the image–bearer of God (Rom. 2:11–16).
    The Moral Law was neither
    formulated nor instituted at Sinai; rather, it was codified and epitomized at
    Sinai in the Decalogue. The Moral Law expresses the moral self–consistency
    or absolute righteous character of the triune God. The Moral Law was
    codified as part of the progressively–revealed redemptive purpose (Rom.
    5:20–21). [All post–Fall Divine revelation is essentially redemptive in nature].
    The Moral Law was revealed to Moses and given to Israel in a codified and
    epitomized or summary form. Israel, as the covenant people of God, formed
    the repository of the Divinely revealed and codified Moral Law until the
    gospel took the true knowledge of God and his moral self–consistency to all
    the nations of the earth.
    What is the purpose of the law for the unbeliever? First, it is revelatory.
    The Law gives the proper recognition of God. It is primarily a revelation of
    the Divine nature and character. It is particularly a transcript of the perfect
    righteousness or moral self–consistency of God and what God requires of
    man (Ex. 20:1–17; Eccl. 12:13–14; Matt. 22:35–40
    ). Second, The Law was
    meant to bring a restraint upon sin (Rom. 2:14–16; 7:7). Third, The Law also
    aggravates the unregenerate mind or heart and causes it to both rebel against
    the commands of God and to lust after that which is forbidden (Rom. 7:7–13).
    Fourth, it is the God–ordained medium of conviction of sin (Rom. 3:19–20;
    5:20; 7:7–13; 1 Cor. 15:56; Gal. 3:24; 1 Tim. 1:8–11). Finally, it is designed
    to lead the sinner to Christ (Gal. 3:23–24). [Note that the Gk. perfect tense in
    Gal. 3:24 ought to be translated “The law was and continues to be our
    schoolmaster to lead us to Christ…”].
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    The text is concerning THE LAW:

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
    16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
    17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
    18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
    19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
    20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
    21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
    22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
    23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
    24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
    25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
    26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
    27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
    24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
    1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
    33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

    You 'sola fides', Cals and non Cals alike, have a tunnel vision lop-sided over emphasis on only one of those several aspects of our justification.
     

Share This Page

Loading...