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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by thomas15, Aug 14, 2012.
If the Church is spiritual Israel, does that make religious Jews spiritual gentiles?
No, just lost pagans...just like everybody else. They need Jesus just like everybody else and will only receive eternal life as they confess and believe in Jesus Christ.
Do you think this is news to me?
So can I conclude then that there is nothing bad in the spiritual realm?
I think it is wrong to think of spiritual Israel as the church. We know we had Old Testament Saints, individuals who God set apart, i.e. sent to Abraham's bosom, and then entered heaven together with the first New Testament saints, i.e. the first members of the "general assembly." So they became members of our church, but we also became "children of the promise." See Galatians 3. Progressive dispensationalism accepts that "all Israel" refers to OT believers, and NT believers. So the church did not replace Israel, they are parts of the same general assembly.
Paul makes clear, those that see Israel as an association of blood line related folks, are stumbling over a stumbling block, a "Jew" is a Jew because of belief, the circumcision of the heart, not a mutilation of the body.
Some on this Forum have been saying this for a long, long time; at least since 2004 that I know of.
Short answer: YES!!!!
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
(Romans 9:6; Romans 9:7-8)
and...Matthew 3:9 - And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
So, if Gentile is mean to denote those outside of God's covenant people, then yes, they are.
And... Van is correct to point out that the church did not replace Israel, but was grafted into Israel.
How do you know that the OT saints enter the kingdom at the same time as the NT saints? Where does the Bible teach this? And are there not some covenant A-Mils (Kim Riddlebarger for example) who state that the kingdom begins for the individual once they receive Christ, so it's sort of an ongoing admission? And how do you get OT saints joining the NT assembly when the OT saints book of life stopped accepting names when the NT started accepting names? If NT saints became children of the promise then how is this not replacement?
I believe that religious Jews by definition are not pagan as they are monotheistic. Not saying that are saved as this is by fatih in Christ only.
"lost pagans...just like everyone else." would you care to rephrase this?
Wow! The church is not Israel, spiritual or otherwise, the church is the church and Israel is Israel. There is no good common sense reason to conflate the two. Both the church and Israel will receive the promise given to Abraham. But that is not a reason to create this mess called spiritual Israel.
One small question, the promise given to Abraham, it states that "to you and your seed". What of Abrahams seed who are not believers, do they receive the promise? Where does the promise given to Abraham say that the promise given him was dependent on faith? I know that in Hebrews it says that Abraham was justified by faith and I have no argument with that however I'm asking about the actual promise given to Abraham.
What exactly is the promise given to Abraham?
By the way, I quite agree!
The nature of your question causes me to respond to you the same as I would someone sitting in my office. Read through Genesis and study very carefully the promises given to Abraham. This way you will get more out of it than you will with a short answer that can be given in a thread online.
actually, doesn't the bible say that spiritual isreal would be those jews in the Church that have received yeshua as the messiah of God?
Hi Thomas15, Hebrews 11:39-40. And all these [OT Saints] having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised because God had provided something better for us [NT Saints] so that apart from us, they should not be made perfect.
Yes, I agree, this inclusion of those set apart based on faith under the old covenant, before Christ provided the propitiation is His blood, was a one-time action. No one has been set apart based on the Old Covenant, since the New Covenant was inaugurated at the death of Christ.
The Old Covenant promises were not replaced, they are applied to the general assembly, thus they will be fulfilled, i.e. the millennial kingdom.
I don't know, you asked the question. I don't know you.
What are you asking here? I'm not following your train of thought.
No, I'm quite happy with my statement.
think that God promised to him that he would be the father to a great nation, isreal, and that also in addition to that, there was to come the messiah through him... His seed was yeshua the Chrsit...
And think the Bible teaches that ANY jew today who receives yeshua as their messiah would partake of those blessings promised to Abraham right now, but ONLY the last generation Jews alive at second coming of jesus can claim ANY of those national blessings coming thru Abraham!
This is what Hebrews 11:39-40 says: Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. NKJV
If you go back and read Genesis as revmitchell urges, you see the actual promises that Jehovah made to Abraham. I asked the question before, what did Jehovah promise Abraham?
Hebrews 11:39-40 is saying that Abraham and his seed (and those saints also mentioned also in Hebrews) died without receiving their promises, that is the land and the nation. The land. In order for Abraham to finally receive the land as promised he must be resurrected. How else could he receive the promise as made to him by Jehovah? He has to be resurrected.
The question in my mind is, are we looking to be resurrected as Jesus was or is there no resurrection as the sadducees taught Luke 20:27-39 ?
Gen 35:10 And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name." So He called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body.
Gen 35:12 The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land."
There it is right there.
According to the way you constructed your statement everyone else is a pagan. You don't define who the everyone else is. It could be everyone else in the world except you and your best 10 friends. And this statement is anyway of course not true unless you redefine the word pagan. My guess is you don't really know the definition of the word pagan.