If the Church was born of Pentecoste....

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    ... when did it change? Was there an expiration date on all those in the Upper Room [to end their Pentecostal experience], and the thousands they laid hands on, were they not also filled with the Spirit of Pentecost? AND, how do we know that the experience of Pentecost truly ended when the last Apostle or Disciple died? Wouldn't the first church, that was, in every sense of the word, PENTECOSTAL, have continued to be PENTECOSTAL, through this day and age, and unto the Rapture?

    I'm just doing some thinking out loud, and I know many of you will set me straight ... which is why I asked! I would like to hear your honest feelings as to why a church born on Pentecoste and starting out with the gift of speaking in other languages, suddenly switched it's direction, doctrine, theology!

    I mean, didn't God tell Jacob, in Malachi 3:6 that, "For I am the LORD, I change not..."

    Then in Numbers 23:19, "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"


    OR, Hebrews 13:8, " Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." And, James 1:17, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down …" FINALLY,
    Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, …" and
    Revelation 22:13, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
     
  2. Jacob_Elliott

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    I think it's debatable whether the church started at pentacost, but in regards to the speaking other languages, it was used to share the gospel with those men that were gathered from all over. The church's mission has always been spreading the gospel. I am interested to see what others have to say about the origin of the church though.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    At the end of the First Century, when the canon was complete.
    In a manner of speaking, yes.

    God was doing something new, at least in the eyes of those who witnessed it. Faith didn't change. Salvation didn't change. But how God related to man had changed, again in the eyes of those who witnessed it, with the advent of Christ. It is accurately said, even though it is an "old saw," that the Old Testament is "Christ Concealed" and the New Testament is "Christ Revealed." More accurately, it could be rephrased "God Concealed, God Revealed," as Jesus Christ is His full revelation.
    When the remaining eleven were led to replace Judas, who had betrayed Jesus and then committed suicide, they plainly stated the first requirement for being an apostle.
    Acts 1, (NASB)
    21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us --
    22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us -- one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." ​
    Some claim that would disqualify Paul, but the apostle himself refutes that.
    1 Corinthians 15
    6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
    7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
    8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.​
    The second requirement of an apostle is the gifts of "signs and wonders."
    2 Corinthians 12
    12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.​
    That it is always in connection with the ministry of one of the apostles is evident throughout the New Testament. "At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people" (Acts 5:12). Romans 15 is speaking about Christ's accomplishments through Paul by use of the miraculous. "In the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit" (Rom. 15:19). Is Paul saying miracles were being done by all the Christians? No. He is talking about particular miracles being done by Paul as an apostle.

    God validated His message through these men, and through the signs and wonders He enabled them to perform. However, there is no longer a need for gifts for which the prime purpose is to validate a ministry of direct revelation. God's Word is complete! The argument is sometimes made that because people do not believe in the Bible, we need the miraculous just as it was needed in the apostles' day. John Wimber and the Vineyard movement particularly loved this argument. But in reading of the deaths of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man from whom he used to beg, we see that simply isn't true.
    Luke 16
    27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house --
    28 for I have five brothers -- in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
    29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
    30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
    31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "
    The proof of that is obvious. Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and people still did not believe -- and still do not believe today. Apostleship does not continue today simply because people have not seen Jesus Christ in His bodily resurrection. The apostles have completed the foundation of the Church, and God's Word is complete. No new revelation is needed.
    Nope. Because the changed lives of those under the ministry of those given the charge of taking God's message into the world, and passing it on to others, all the way down to us, amounts to the miracles Jesus said we would do that were greater than His own.
    John 14
    12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." ​
    If I were to call down lightening and fire from the sky, and then told you, "God has given you this sign that you may believe," of course you will believe, at least from an emotional standpoint if not to saving faith.

    But if I tell you of my military service that was tempered by PTSD, the addictions that followed, my resultant criminal past, my deliverance from prison into the ministry he has given me today, and you believe either from emotion or to saving faith, which is the greater miracle?
    How is there a lie in the temporary granting of "signs and wonders" for confirmation of His word? How has God changed if He gives gifts from His temporal body, to the temporal beings of the apostles? Note He didn't give these gifts from heaven, but through the Person of Jesus Christ, in the flesh. Paul states (in my opinion, quite plainly) that these gifts were ceasing even in his lifetime.
    1 Corinthians 13
    8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
    9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
    10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.​
    I interrupt this quote to explain. Prophecy and knowledge -- the former being the forthtelling of the word and message of God, the latter being understood as "special knowledge" of specific events -- "will be done away" which is the Greek katargeo, to render idle, unemployed, inoperative. Tongues "will cease" is the Greek pauo, and it literally means, "cease" but it also carries an interesting secondary meaning, "to no longer be stirred by its incitements and seductions," a warning against how it was practiced in Corinth and, I believe, how it is practiced today.

    Why were these "done away" and "ceased"? Because "the perfect" comes. Many think that means Jesus. But Jesus isn't a neuter noun, but masculine personal. This isn't a person of any kind, but a thing, and that "thing" is undoubtedly the completed word of God in the original autographs. Because that was to fully exist and become complete with John's Revelation, the signs and wonders would not longer be necessary. We go back to the "greater works than these" spoken of by Jesus, that the Word and the testimony of believers replaces "signs and wonders."
    11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
    12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
    13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. ​
    This is indicative of the "milk" of faith, the simpler things that brought the message into the world. They are the equivalent of the "childish things" by which we grow in knowledge and sufficiency to be adults in this world. They pass away. We become mature, adult, standing on our own. In our faith, now we feast on "meat," the fact that the Word and our testimony is sufficient to proclaim the message of salvation. These are the things that "abide" after the "childish things" -- prophecy, tongues and knowledge -- have been "done away" and "ceased."
     
    #3 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 29, 2014
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  4. Yeshua1

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    Book of Acts recorded historial transistion age of the early church, as they moved from being under old to new Covenant, and what happened at pentacost was in fulfillment of OT prophecies, and the lord used sign gifts anf tingues to make the jews relaise that samaritnas and gentiles also were to call upon yeshua to be saved!

    So Acts recorded a time when lord established the work and person of Jesus by signs/wonders, confirmed to the jews jesus was messiah to all by tongues, and now we have the completed canon, Gospel and jesus been established, so NO need for that today!

    As ALL have been baptized with/in Spirit when born again!
     
  5. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher
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    Oh, Dude... (sorry...)

    I agree with the idea the Church - the total collection of believers in Jesus Christ - began on the day of the Jewish holy day, Pentecost. The Church was not 'of' Pentecost, but began 'on' Pentecost. (I'm not sure if that was a typo, but I thought I'd try to cover all bases.)

    I'm sure you know, but I'll say it anyway: Pentecost is a Greek word, meaning 'fiftieth day'. In Hebrew in the Old Testament, this holy day was the Feast of Weeks, and associated with the harvest.

    What changed? Nothing changed as far as I can tell. Other than we typically meet in special buildings these days and have splintered into denominations. To what change do you refer?

    Huh? Expired? When they died, I suppose. That's when I plan on expiring. What is the 'Spirit of Pentecost'? Is that similar to the Holy Spirit?

    I cannot speak for anyone else, but I've never had a visible fire - reminiscent of a 'tongue' over my head. At least not that I'm aware. I do remember a time of prayer and meditation when I thought I was about to turn green and expand out of my shirt. (It didn't happen, just for the record.)

    By this, are you using the term in the same sense as the 'Pentecostal' denomination? If so, I don't think that is a correct assumption. Since the day of Pentecost was a harvest festival, shouldn't it be called the "Harvest Church"?

    Reasonable. Do you really want an answer which doesn't reinforce your assumptions?

    Since the languages the most of the early Christians spoke were Aramaic, probably some Hebrew, and Greek; most of us do speak 'other languages'. F'rinstance, I speak English, Spanish and fake a little French. The congregation to which I belong support missionaries who speak a wide variety of languages, including Navajo and Russian. What direction, doctrine and theology changed?

    You are right however, in that God does not change. It is one of His 'limitations'. (As if being infinite is a limitation.)
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    Brother Disconnected has it about right in post #3.
    I Corinthians 13 clearly says tongues, prophecy and knowledge will cease, at least as practiced and defined during apostolic times.

    I think the the case can be made that "that which is perfect" is the completed canon.

    The question of the time of the founding of the church is grist for a separate thread. And it wasn't at Pentecost.
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    I Corinthians 13 clearly says tongues, prophecy and knowledge (as defined back then) would cease.

    He indicated that they would cease when "that which is perfect is come."

    I think Brother disconnected is about right, when he says this is a reference to the completed canon.

    As to the time of the beginning of the church, that's grist for a separate discussion. It wasn't at Pentecost, in my opinion. If I'm right, when was it started? I start another thread on this shortly. I'll post it in this General Discussion section.
     
  8. JamesL

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    I disagree. Paul said:
    "but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

    I don't see how the "perfect" is the close of the canon, unless the close of the canon also brought us "face to face" and knowing fully as we have been fully known.

    I believe we must consider that there were quite a few things which Jesus told to the apostles, that unfortunately have been latched onto by the church as applying to the entire church to the same extent.

    Jesus was with only the disciples when He told them that they would be able to move mountains (Matt 17:20, 21:21, Mark 11:11)

    Jesus was with only the disciples when He said that they would experience severe persecution (Matt 10:16-19)

    He was with only the disciples when He told them to go make disciples and baptize them (Matt 28:19). Interestingly, Paul said that he was NOT called to baptize, but that he had baptized a select few (1Cor 1:14-17)

    Jesus was with only the disciples when He said, "whatever you sake in My name, I will do it for you." (John 14:14)

    Jesus was with only the disciples when He said, "When He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you into all truth." (John 16:13)

    And Jesus was with only the disciples when He said, "You will receive power from on high." (Acts 1:8)

    Now, many people believe that these are blanket promises to every believer, but I don't believe for one second that it is the case.

    After the apostles were guided into all truth, the church has displayed anything but consensus. If we were guided into all truth individually, then we would all agree on every tiny issue. There would be ZERO disagreement among believers.

    The command to baptize most certainly wasn't universal, or else Paul would not have said that he was not called to baptize anyone. I haven't been, either

    The certainty of extreme persecution has not fallen upon every believer.

    The promise of doing greater miracles has not been realized by every believer (1Cor 12:27)

    The promise of "whatever you ask" has not been realized by every believer

    Not every believer has been empowered to move mountains (1Cor 13:2), raise the dead 1Cor 12:29), or heal the sick (1Cor 12:30)

    All of these promises, given by Jesus to his disciples, were fully realized by the apostles only.

    But each of these promises have been extended to the entire church to a lesser degree from then til now. Every believer has had some prayers answered, and every believer has a good deal of truth. Some have actually baptized, some have experienced severe persecution, and some have spoken in other tongues, prophesied, healed the sick, or have otherwise been empowered by the Holy Spirit to varying degrees. Even til now

    If healing ceased after the canon, then so did helps (1Cor 12:28). If prophecy ceased after the canon, then so did teaching (1Cor 12:29). They are all mingled together by Paul, not grouped into "sign" and "ministerial"
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    You're assuming "face to face" means meeting a person personally. Not so with the Greek idiom prosopon ei prosopon, which carries the same meaning as the Hebrew idiom for "face to face." That is, "without a mediator." Also, as I said, Paul would not have used the neuter noun teleios to describe Jesus, who must be described in the Greek using the masculine personal.
    That's because they do.
    Are you so immature that you don't know Jesus isn't talking about moving mountains, but having faith? The point is having big faith in God, not moving a mountain.
    Tell that to the 150-200 Malaysians that died every day for over two years back in the 1990s when the Islamic purists went through that country demanding a renunciation of Christianity, or death, for the faithful. Tell that to the nearly 50,000 Chinese imprisoned with no definite sentence because they dared worship Christ.
    And you assume these 12 literally reached the whole world? On what basis do you reach that conclusion?
    No where does Paul deny he was "called to baptize." His statement to the Corinthians that "thank God I baptized none of you" except a few was on the heels of his question regarding in whom the church members were baptized. They claimed to follow Apollos, Paul, or Peter, rather than Jesus Christ.
    I'd be interested to know why you want to slap an illogical conclusion on this statement and not do so regarding verse 12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." After all, He was only with the disciples when He made this statement too, so I guess we believe in Him to no avail, by your reasoning?
    So only the apostles present with Jesus were to receive the Holy Spirit?
    So believers have no power from Christ through the Holy Spirit?

    Do you utterly fail to see how ludicrous are your statements here?
    Then you have denied you faith completely, and have no place on this board. More accurately, you have displayed a complete lack of understanding of what you have claimed to believe. You are not even feeding on the milk of the word, because it is not nourishing you.
    You're again making ridiculous assumptions, this time that all who claim Christ actually follow Christ. That's very naïve.
    I've already dealt with this, and your assumption that Paul was "not called to baptize" is in error, as is your own belief that you are not called to baptize.
    It was never foretold for "every believer," but certainly foretold for the church at large.
    It's hard to see miracles if you don't believe in anything that doesn't blow your mind or trigger an emotional reaction in you. If that's what you seek, you won't make the effort to bring the real miracles about. The "greater miracles" Jesus spoke of are the miracles of conversion based solely on the Word and our testimony, belief based on that evidence of a far greater miracle than faith that is engendered by a healing done before one's eyes.
    You obviously don't understand the meaning of that promise. It must be within God's will, and much of what we ask is not.
    Yet again, you completely misunderstand these passages, failing to see that faith, not action, is the point.
    Show me where any of the apostles moved a mountain.
    And? You think this proves your point, that only "some" have received these things? It actually speaks to the lack of faith we have that only "some" have fully experienced Christ.
    To the disgrace of them who have, because how tongues was given in the first century and how it is now practiced are two separate and distinct things, the current practice being unbiblical and bordering on heretical.
    Prophesied wrongly, meaning they have sinned against, not honored, God. And no one "heals the sick." God heals, and God alone. He doesn't need human agency. He has the power, whether through an apparent instant miracle, or the long arduous work of doctors and hospitals. Either way, He alone does the work.
    Everyone has that power. That they don't use it, that they don't trust in God to lend them that power, is their fault, not God's. He told us that we would be empowered, we simply don't avail ourselves of it. I'm not talking about a circus act empowerment as our Pentecostal brothers and sisters tend to look for. I'm talking about the power to get through a trial, such as addiction, illness, death of a loved one, loss of a job, a home, a family. That's real power, and not what many want. They want to be impressed, have their emotions elevated, see "miracles" -- when the real miracle is the simple act of faith that, for example, prays to God to relieve pain and knowing that He will. The Holy Spirit's power is displayed quietly, respectfully, with distinguished nobility -- not via a circus act.
    This is just further proof that you haven't a clue. Obviously helps, nor administration, nor preaching and teaching have not stopped. But the three gifts Paul absolutely, without question, states will "cease" or be "done away" -- have been.
     
    #9 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 30, 2014
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  10. JamesL

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    It's very interesting to contrast my post and yours:

    MY post is laden with scripture and a reasoned approach to my position.

    YOUR post on the other hand, contains NOT ONE scripture reference to counter, and nothing except word twisting, sarcasm and insult. Your lack of diligence is duly noted. I'll probably put that in my file cabinet - file #13

    Next time someone upsets your doctrinal psyche, you might want to be more like a Berean, rather than the Jews from Thessalonica.

    I think your number might actually be disconnected. You should pray for your ego in the same manner that you prayed for your leg

    Just my thoughts
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    That's because I posted all the Scripture I needed to post right here. That's the third post in the thread, and, if you bother to read it this time -- as apparently you didn't read it before you posted your own misguided diatribe -- it is laden with Scripture. I didn't think you would post in a thread without having followed its flow, and at least glimpsing at previous content. Perhaps I gave you too much credit for being anything other than disingenuous?

    And by the way, I've been rejecting your kind of theology, and successfully arguing against it, for years, so you could hardly "upset" anything, especially my "doctrinal psyche." I'd tell you I'll await your apology, but I doubt you have it within you to offer one, or seek forgiveness.
     
    #11 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 30, 2014
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  12. JamesL

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    I most certainly did read the entire thread. I replied, with scripture, as to why I disagreed with your take on the matter.

    But your take doesn't make an attempt to show a flaw in my take. So you are incorrect if you think post #3 rebuts later posts. It didn't. You gave your opinion, and I showed from scripture why I disagreed. You showed from emotional sarcasm why you disagreed with mine. Your emotional rants are not on par with scripture, sir.

    But if you think I've wronged you, and that you are deserving of an apology, you have it. I have no idea what for, and that may be the thing I'm most sorry about. That I need forgiveness without being told my offense, Nevertheless, I am sorry I offended you
     
  13. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Then you knew full well I had posted Scriptures supporting my position, and you disingenuously lied about my not doing so. I do not brook liars or braggarts. I pray you repent.
     
    #13 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 30, 2014
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  14. JamesL

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    Maybe you don't understand the difference between supporting your position and countering mine. You can accuse me, insult me, drag my intentions through the mud, or maybe you could just punch me in the face. Would that make you feel better?

    I thought I did a respectable job of countering your position. A rational debate could have ensued; but instead you jumped out and lambasted my intelligence, sincerity, motives, and then had the gall to demand an apology from me?

    Even still, I offered it. And you're offended even to this moment. I think if I drove 20 minutes to Overland Park and laid prostrate at your doorstep, you would kick me or set me on fire.

    There is an issue within you that is not right
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Signs and wonders were gifted and done thru the Apsotle of Jesus, to confirm that he was messiah, and NT was from God!

    paul lost his gift of healing near end of his life, and writer of hebrews pretty plain that signs and wonders HAD BEEN done by Apostles among them, and the gospel message was confirmed!

    NO need to have revealtions thru prophets and those gifted to prophesy, and tobgue and intrete in assemblies, as now can hear the more sur of bible being expounded upon!

    Signs and wonders as gifts ceased, as not needed to confirm with, and the Lord can and does at times still do healings and miracles, but they are rare, and done by Him per His will and response to prayers!

    same way, don'r need prophesy/tongues, as Bible is fully sufficient, and word of the Lord to us!

    other gifts remain intant though, as still vitially needed!
     

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