If the Roman Catholic Church is so bad...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by jay29, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. jay29

    jay29
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    Then why has it prospered for over 2,000 years and is THE largest denomination of Christianity? Over 1 billion people around the world. Is that for nothing? Shall we ignore that fact? Or has it been guided and protected by the Holy Spirit all these years? Is is not the one that Jesus actually founded on Peter?

    Read these points about St.Peter:

    *Consider of all the Apostles, Our Lord chose to give a permanent new name ONLY to St. Peter by saying, "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter" Matthew 16:18. Note Our Lord did not give the other Apostles an additional new names, only Peter, which signifies Peter's authority among the Apostles. And if we look elsewhere in Scripture, other name changes have signified a change of status, such as with Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and Jacob in Genesis 32:28.

    *Consider the verse, "And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." Luke 22:31. When Our Lord was about to establish the faith in His Church, He specifically prayed for St. Peter as head. Scripture does not show Our Lord saying this to any of the other Apostles. Is this not to place him as responsible for all? And it is also equally clear that having prayed specifically for St. Peter, the head of the others, it was so St. Peter might not fail, who was to assist with supplying the others with the faith as well.

    *And when Our Lord says, "being once converted" that St. Peter should "confirm thy brethren", does this not clearly state that St. Peter is head of the others? Our Lord could not have given St. Peter the command to confirm the Apostles without charging him to have care over them.

    *Also consider the verses, "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep." John 21:15. Our Lord again, only said these words to St. Peter and not to the other Apostles because St. Peter alone was the authority among them. There is no confusion on whether Our Lord was speaking to St. Peter alone here for the part "more than these" shows Our Lord referring to the other Apostles, and only St. Peter was grieved. And what does it mean to give someone charge of feeding the sheep but to be their pastor, ruler and shepherd? In many places in Scripture to "feed" and to "rule" are used interchangeably as well so there is no confusion here.

    *And when Our Lord said, "As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep." John 10:15, Our Lord was not referring to specific sheep, but ALL of His sheep. Some Protestants have argued that Our Lord was referring to only specific "lambs" and "sheep" in John 21, but this is illogical for if He was, why did He not specify the specific lambs and sheep?
    bullet In addition, Our Lord first says, "Feed my lambs" twice, then "Feed my sheep" once. What was the purpose of this? This was to clearly give St. Peter charge not only over the people but the pastors and Apostles themselves for the sheep nourish the lambs.

    *We also have proof of St. Peter's authority over the other Apostles based on any time either all or part of the Apostles are referenced in Scripture, St. Peter is always listed first, and in each of these instances, the other Apostles' names that follow are not in any particular order.
    bullet We also note in numerous places in Scripture where there is occasion for the Apostles to speak, St. Peter is known to speak for the group. "Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God." John 6:68. Notice St. Peter speaks for the group and also says "and WE have believed", speaking for all. Only one in authority speaks for a group.
    bullet Consider the verse, "And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe" Acts 15:7. This verse clearly shows St. Peter publicly exercising his authority over the other Apostles.

    *Some Protestants have been known to say that all the Apostles are equal, with St. Peter having no authority over them. Looking at the verses just referenced above, Our Lord clearly bestowed this right on St. Peter for the good of the Church; to avoid schisms like we see in the Protestant churches today!

    *To further expand on this point, in several other locations in Scripture there are references to Peter and the other Apostles without naming them, such as "Peter and they that were with him" (Luke 9:32) and "Simon, and they that were with him, followed after him" (Mark 1:36) which clearly indicate St. Peter as head. St. Peter is also named separately when referencing all of the Apostles on several occasions such as "But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee" (Mark 16:7), and "But Peter standing up with the eleven" (Acts 2:14), and "and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles" Acts 2:37. What more can be said on this subject?

    *Here we see St. Peter being first to convert others to the Church; "They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls" Acts 2:41

    *Here we see St. Peter performing the first healing; "But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk. And taking him by the right hand, he lifted him up, and forthwith his feet and soles received strength" Acts 3:6-7

    *St. Peter was the first of the Apostles to raise the dead; "Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up. And giving her his hand, he lifted her up. And when he had called the saints and the widows, he presented her alive." Acts 9:40,41. There is simply no doubt as to St. Peter's authority over the other Apostles.

    *The Protestant reformers have also denied St. Peter was originally the first head of the Church. How can anyone deny this when so many writings from the first three centuries from renowned people contain references to St. Peter being first head of the Church and head of the Apostles? For example we have in the middle of the third century St. Cyprian saying that Cornelius has succeeded to "the place of Fabian which is the place of Peter" (Ep 55:8; cf. 59:14). Firmilian of Caesarea notices that Stephen claimed to decide the controversy regarding rebaptism on the ground that he held the succession from Peter (Cyprian, Ep. 75:17). In the first quarter of the 3rd century (about 220) Tertullian (De Pud. 21) mentions Callistus's claim that Peter's power to forgive sins had descended in a special manner to him. About the same period, Hippolytus in "Clement of Rome", 1:259) reckons Peter in the list of Roman bishops. In addition writings from St. Jerome quote St. Peter as "Head of the Church" and a writing from St. Hilary as "Happy foundation of the Church" and many, many other examples not listed here. There is simply no doubt as to St. Peter being the first Bishop of Rome.

    Explain all the above.
     
  2. Johnv

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    Because it proves that God does not like idleness. The existence of the RCC today keeps us busy with a target to pick on. [​IMG]
     
  3. JamieinNH

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    Can't you say this about Buddhism? Hinduism? Atheism?


    Just because something has been around for a while doesn't mean anything.


    Jamie
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
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    That's true. Just look at Strom Thurmond.
     
  5. HankD

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    Simple, they hadn't read their Bibles.

    Peter never was, is or ever will be the head of the Church, Jesus Christ is, was and always shall be.

    Colossians 1
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
     
  6. jay29

    jay29
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    Simple, they hadn't read their Bibles.

    Peter never was, is or ever will be the head of the Church, Jesus Christ is, was and always shall be.

    Colossians 1
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then who did Jesus build his church on and give the keys to heaven to? Or is that one of those symbolic situations?
     
  7. Linda64

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    Jesus certainly did not build His church on a fallible man like Peter. When you read Matthew 16:18-20 in context, you will see that the church is built, not upon the person of Peter, but upon the testimony of Peter.

    “There is in the Greek a play upon words, ‘Thou art Peter (‘petros’--—literally, a little rock), and upon this rock (‘Petra’--—a solid rock mass or foundation) I will build my church.’ He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself. Peter himself was careful to tell us that the foundation of the church is Christ. ‘Wherefore, also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious...’ ( 1 Pe 2:6 )” (Scofield Reference Bible).


    Things Hard to be Understood: David Cloud ( Matthew 16:16-20 )
     
  8. jay29

    jay29
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    What you bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and what you lose on earth shall also be lose in heaven. Those are some POWERFUL words there. Do Baptists take anything literally in the Bible or is it all up for interpretation?

    Jesus is the Invisable Head of the whole Universal Church. The Church militant, Church Suffering, as well as the Saints in Heaven.

    The Pope is the visable head of the church militant on earth only. The Pope is above man, but below God and answerable to know one. The universal church is not a democracy at all.

    Remember the Universal Church (Catholic) is made up of Saints and Sinners. The good, the bad and the ugly. It has always perservered and always had the same message for 2,000 years. It doesn't change with the times unlike the Anglicans/Episcopals!
     
  9. BobRyan

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    These questions direct us to the sordid "history" of the RCC specifically in its "golden age" when those ruled by it were being driven into the depths of the "dark ages" - for the dark ages of mankind in Europe was in fact "the golden age" for the RCC.

    The extermination policy it proclaimed in Lateran IV and the inquisition it authored were instrumental in its persection of 50 million Christians over a period of many centuries.

    The point is well taken - LOOK at history!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. jay29

    jay29
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    These questions direct us to the sordid "history" of the RCC specifically in its "golden age" when those ruled by it were being driven into the depths of the "dark ages" - for the dark ages of mankind in Europe was in fact "the golden age" for the RCC.

    The extermination policy it proclaimed in Lateran IV and the inquisition it authored were instrumental in its persection of 50 million Christians over a period of many centuries.

    The point is well taken - LOOK at history!

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]The Church is made up of Saints and Sinners! The good, bad, and the ugly. Besides Protestants have no room to talk. There history is VERY bloody. Just look at America's History. Who turned a blind eye to slavery in the South? Catholics? No way!
     
  11. Bunyon

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    That's true. Just look at Strom Thurmond.

    JhonV, the man has been a moldering in the grave for a few years now. Have some respect. [​IMG]
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
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    I don't believe in a universal church. The only universal church on earth that I know of will be that of the antichrist. The church that I belong to is made up of saints only. The Catholic Church is made of sinners, I agree; sinners in need of salvation. One cannot be in full agreement with Catholic doctrine, and fully cognizant of the plan of salvation and be saved at the same time. You cannot serve two masters. You can either serve Christ or the Catholic Church but not both.
    I can speak with some authority here since I was a Catholic for 20 years and never once heard the gospel in the Catholic Church, and secondly:
    Because the message of the Catholic Church is in direct conflict with the message of the Bible.
    BTW, a saint is simply one who is born again, by trusting Christ as his savior. He is born again by faith and faith alone. Thus the members of our church are all saints. We don't accept sinners into membership just saints. If you haven't become a saint, you are not permitted into membership.

    Now that I have answered your post, I ask you as a moderator to please identify yourself as to which denomination you belong to, and which church you belong to; neither of which is filled out properly in your profile.
    DHK
     
  13. D28guy

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    jay29,

    1st of all, the Roman Catholic Church has no part of "Christianity", in the literal sense. None. Nada.

    They are overflowing with idolatry, blasphemy and heresy. They proclaim a false gospel that will save nobody, and place the curse of the Catholic Church upon the true gospel.

    But in terms of *visible* professing christianity, it is large because Satan is alive and well, and very crafty at his trade.

    And that trade would be...deception.

    If "bigness" were some kind of proof than the Muslims would have the truth as well.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Amen, Brother Mike!

    It is sad, so many are deceiving and being deceived. Our job is to witness, Sow the seed, water the seed, believe God for an increase.
     
  15. D28guy

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    Jay29,

    That is a lie straight from hell.

    The Pope is the visible earthly head of a blashphemous organisation filled with idolatry, heresy, false teaching, and proclaiming a false gospel that has its origin in hell itself.

    The Head of the Body of Christ(the Church) was...is...and always will be the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  16. D28guy

    D28guy
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    Standing firm,

    Hey! Are you following me around? :D

    Or am I following you around? :D :D

    I get pretty strong about Catholicism...too strong some say...but I was a "good" Catholic all the time growing up Roman Catholic. Did the rituals, read the catechism, prayed to Mary with the prayer beads, went into the little booth and told a mere man about my sins, etc.

    But when temptation came as a teenager, I had no foundation of anything substantial at all. I went off into the drugs and reefer and drinking and the girls from the bars.

    But after I encountered some actual born again people who shared the truth with me, conviction came upon me and after about 3 years I finally embraced the true Christ. :D

    The saving Christ!

    Along with the new found joy and excitement that one experiences after the new birth, I was infuriated at that organisation.(The RCC)

    I drove me nuts that THEY NEVER TOLD ME THE TRUTH! THE TRUE GOSPEL!!

    All they teach is "intelllectual" belief in Jesus Christ...and of course intellectual belief saves nobody...but beyond that non-saving belief in a historical Jesus, it was just "be a good Catholic", "do the rituals", "be a good Catholic", "pray the prayer beads", "be a good Catholic", "Pray to Mary", "be a good Catholic", etc.

    So...I do get strong. But I remember Christ getting strong at the unsaved "religious".("White washed tombs filled with dead mens bones"), and Paul as well.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    Amen, Brother Mike!

    I did not grow up in the Catholic Church,but as I said earlier, I had a friend, Alan, who was Catholic. He used to brag about how he could smoke his dope and drink his beer and go to confession the next day. Sadly I never got to lead him to the Lord.

    I wonder about those guys. I mean, the Word of God tells us in Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. So, I wonder if He hears those confessions made to the man in the box at all; especially if they are coming from someone who has the attitude that 'if I sin, I will just go to confession tomorrow'.

    What if one dies before one gets to that confession box? Sad.

    Hey, I am so glad you came to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ's love and mercy. Bless you, my Brother!

    Ron
     
  18. Brice

    Brice
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    D28,

    God bless you brother, I always enjoy your posts'.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    jay29 said:

    Because it had a whole empire with captive subjects from which it emerged, the Roman Empire, and because it baptizes babies into membership.
    Stare hard at the Muslim world, jay29, and ask yourself the same question:

    Why is Roman Catholic membership dwindling, while Muslims are growing ?

    My answer is because many Roman Catholics are converting to other faiths, including Islam, while those who are born in Islamic countries (which incidentally do not practice birth control)
    are born into the Muslim faith.

    Numbers don't mean nothin'.
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    jay29 also said:
    If Peter has any authority at all over the other apostles, then Paul is guilty of disrespect of the Lord, for when one confronts a person of authority in public,then one confronts the source of that person's authority, and we have such an incident in Galatians 2:11 - "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

    Remember that the Lord always spoke to His apostles in terms they can understand. He was a carpenter, and while Peter may not be a carpenter but a fisherman, it appears he knows enough of carpentry to understand the principles of foundations.

    Jesus Christ is the Rock which is the foundation, the chief cornerstone.

    1 Corinthians 10:4 specifically states " And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    On that foundation, other stones are laid out, which become part of the foundation, and the apostles and prophets even are all foundations of the church.

    Ephesians 2:20 says "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    Also, it will be well for you to study both the historical and geographical context of the verse.

    Ask yourself: why is it that Jesus asked this question 'whom do men say....' and then 'whom do you say...' on the coasts of Cesaria Philippi and not any other place ?

    Focus on Christ, man, not Peter. Christ is the Creator, Peter is simply a creature. Christ is the Savior, Peter is simply a saved.
     

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