If They Shall Fall Away

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, May 6, 2016.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    A thread started by TC was just closed called Sovereign Grace as it should be and we were all witness to a lively discussion by TC and Jon... The following was taken from John Gill on his exposition of the whole bible from Hebrews 6. This is just a except upon the statement "If They Shall Fall Away"... I think a few of us will be surprised who this statement is directed to and Gill says it so I won't step on any toes here... If you are familiar with Gill you can read it further. What are they falling away from and falling into?... Brother Glen

    This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from ( Hebrews 6:9 ) nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally; they may indeed fall, not only into afflictions and temptations, but into sin; and from a lively and comfortable exercise of grace, and from a degree of steadfastness in the Gospel; but not irrecoverably: for they are held and secured by a threefold cord, which can never be broken; by God the Father, who has loved them with an everlasting love, has chosen them in Christ, secured them in the covenant of grace, keeps them by his power, has given them grace, and will give them glory; and by the Son, who has undertook for them, redeemed and purchased them, prays and makes preparations in heaven for them, they are built on him, united to him, and are his jewels, whom he will preserve; and by the Holy Ghost, whose grace is incorruptible, whose personal indwelling is for ever, who himself is the earnest and seal of the heavenly inheritance, and who having begun, will finish the good work of grace.
     
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  2. TCassidy

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    Yes. The verb translated "fall away" is a second aorist, active voice, participle and can be translated "fall away from." It can describe the lost who hear the gospel but turn back and "fall away from" any further interaction, or of a saved person who falls into sin for a season and whose life seems, to the outside observer, to be devoid of grace. But we can have full assurance that person will be drawn back to a close relationship with the Son, by the Father, in the power of the Holy Spirit. :)

    I have never had a problem with those verses as I have never even considered the Arminian possibility of losing salvation. :)
     
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  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    As for a Believer losing their salvation, I observe two factors that mitigate such a position.
    • Redemption - a Believer was bought by the precious Blood of Christ and God doesn't have a return counter to get the redemption price back.
    • Adoption - God would have to disinherit the Believer.
    • Regeneration - God would have to "unborn" us.
     
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  4. 360watt

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    Hi!

    Thought I'd chime in with a couple of cents :)

    Earlier context in Hebrews is about what believers do to build on their faith.

    Example:

    (Heb 2:1) Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

    (Heb 2:2) For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

    (Heb 2:3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    (Heb 2:4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    (Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.


    and in the Hebrews 6 chapter:

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

    So generally it is about believers going on to maturity in their faith (remembering that perfection in the bible is about maturity and completeness..not sinlessness)

    And so

    Would not the 'falling away' in

    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Be about a -- as TCassidy types.. 'a season of struggle of sin'?

    But NOT 'loss of eternal life'

    Especially when you compare it to others verses about the guarantee of eternal life in other parts of the bible such as John 5:24
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Yes and I agree with Gill and TC and with the Squire and you... btw welcome here you will be an added addition to this discussion and the board... Can a Child Of God lose their Salvation?... First all the designation of the title says who they belong to... They are a Child Of God or as I like the loving term a Child Of Grace... Not that the Child Of Grace deserved the Grace otherwise it is not a gift from God and was purchased by his Son The Lord Jesus Christ... Can one lose what Christ bought?... If they can then they didn't belong to Christ in the first place. As TC pointed out you can lose your Joy here in time of that Salvation... And as Squire also pointed out according to Adoption and Regeneration God would have to disinherit the Believer. and in Regeneration - God would have to "unborn" us and that is not biblical truth... That is a lie from the devil who was a lier from the beginning and seeks who he will devour from his evil accusations... Is it any wonder God's children are so confused?... Brother Glen
     
  6. Squire Robertsson

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    Just to add:
    • I didn't do anything to gain salvation. How can I do anything to lose it?
    • God is omniscient. As to redemption, He knew what He was buying. He knew the times when I would be good, bad, obedient and disobedient. IOW, He isn't surprised and get buyer's remorse.
     
    #6 Squire Robertsson, May 6, 2016
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    I believe the passage speaks of.........If having fallen away...

    6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.[ylt]

    from preceptaustin;
    Hebrews 6:6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB: Lockman)

    Greek: kai parapesontas, (AAPMPA) palin anakainizein (PAN) eis metanoian, anastaurountas (PAPMPA) heautois ton huion tou theou kai paradeigmatizontas. (PAPMPA)
    Amplified: If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace. (Amplified Bible - Lockman) Barclay: and who then became apostates, for they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves and are making a mocking show of him. (Westminster Press)
    ESV: if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (ESV)
    KJV: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    NET: and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt. (NET Bible)
    NIV
    : if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV - IBS)
    NLT: and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. (NLT - Tyndale House)
    Phillips: and who then fall away, it proves impossible to make them repent as they did at first. For they are re-crucifying the Son of God in their own souls, and by their conduct exposing him to shame and contempt. (Phillips: Touchstone)
    Wuest: and have fallen away, again to be renewing them to repentance, crucifying to themselves the Son of God and putting Him to an open shame. (Eerdmans)
    Weymouth: it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.
    Young's Literal: and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    pt2;
    ND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY: kai parapesontas (AAPMPA):

    And then (2532) (kai) indicates connection to the prior passage, mostly as a simple continuative, marking the progress of a continued discourse. Kai does not mark the beginning of a conditional statement as is suggested by several translations that begin the sentence with "if". The King James translation, NIV and RSV have chosen to translate this passage with if but this is not an accurate rendering of the Greek text and is potentially misleading.

    Fallen away (3895) (parapipto from pará = to side of or from + pípto= fall) means to fall aside or fall away. Figuratively it means to apostatize or to fall away from adherence to realities and facts of the true faith. This is the only use in the NT (6 uses in Septuagint - Esth 6:10; Ezek 14:13; 15:8; 18:24; 20:27; 22:4).

    Contrast the writer's repetitive call for the readers to hold fast (He 3:6, 14, 4:14, 10:23 - See notes Hebrews 3:6, 3:14, 4:14, 10:23, Cp Hebrews 3:12-note)

    From the context of the rest of Hebrews, those who fall away are not genuine believers.

    John gives a parallel description in his first letter writing that...

    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. (1Jn 2:19)

    How is it possible for one to experience all of the spiritual truths outlined in this section and yet not be regenerated? As discussed earlier, Judas Iscariot experienced Jesus Himself, God in the flesh and yet he was never born again. Jesus even called him “devil” (Jn 6:70), “son of perdition” (Jn 17:12, and one for whom it “would be better… if he had not been born” (Mk 14:21). Jesus knew Judas’ condition from the beginning, though Judas fooled the disciples to the last!

    Parapipto is used in the Septuagint (LXX) of the following passage...

    Ezekiel 20:27 "Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against (LXX = parapipto) Me."

    Note that the "falling away behavior" of Israel as described by Ezekiel had virtually the same impact as did the falling away in Hebrews 6:6; i.e., it resulted in Christ being "put to open shame" which is similar to God being blasphemed in the OT.
    IT IS IMPOSSIBLE: adunatos:

    F B Hole notes that...

    We may well ask if it is possible for anyone to share in this way without being truly converted; and this question may well be specially urgent as regards the third of the five. Can it be possible to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost" without being born again?

    The answer to that question is, that it is quite possible. Only a true believer can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but all within the circle of Christian profession, whether truly converted or not, partake or share in the benefits of the presence of the Spirit. A man may be enlightened without being saved. He may taste the heavenly gift without receiving it. He may taste the good word of God without digesting it in his inward parts. He may share in "the powers of the world to come." (i.e. miraculous powers) without experiencing the real power of the world to come.

    The terrible case of Judas Iscariot furnishes us with an illustration of this very thing. He walked for over three years in the company of the Son of God. What floods of light fell upon his path! What tastes he had of the heavenly gift and of the good Word of God! It could not be said of course that he was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but he was a partaker of the benefits of the presence of Christ upon earth; and he shared, in common with the other apostles, in those miraculous powers which are here called "the powers of the world to come." He was one of the twelve to whom the Lord gave power over unclean spirits, and of whom it is said, "They cast out many devils and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them." (Mark 6:13). Yet the miracle-working Judas was all the while a "son of perdition" and not a saved man at all. He fell away and it proved impossible to renew him unto repentance.

    You will notice that the word here, is "impossible" and not "improbable." This one word is quite sufficient to show that there is no support in this scripture for the idea of a true believer falling away and being lost for ever. ALL those who "fall away" in the sense spoken of in this passage are for ever lost. It is not that they may be, but that they must be; and there would not be a single ray of hope for any back-slider, did it refer to such.

    It refers then to the sin of apostasy — a sin to which the Jew, who embraced the Christian religion without being really converted, was peculiarly liable. By turning back to his ancient and worn out religion, thereby utterly condemning and disowning the Lord Jesus, he proved himself to be utterly bad and worthless ground. (Hebrews Commentary Notes)

    Impossible (102) (adunatos [word study]from a = without + dunatós = possible, able, or powerful from dunamai = to be able or have power by virtue of inherent ability and resources. Note the stem duna- or dyna- conveying the basic sense of ability or capability, power, strength, might) means impossible, incapable of being or of occurring, incapable of being done. Adunatos is used twice to convey the idea of one who is impotent, has no strength or lacks capability in functioning adequately, once in a literal sense (Acts 14:8 below = powerless) and once in a spiritual sense (Romans 15:1 = of those who do not "strongly" believe).

    Note that adunatos is not present in this verse in the Greek but is found in Hebrews 6:4 where it is place first in the Greek sentence for emphasis. It's as if the author wants to make it blazingly, blatantly clear...."Impossible it is..."! One can hardly miss his point. In regard to man’s moral offense, there is no "permanent cure" effected by the physical blood of animals.

    There are 26 uses in the Septuagint (LXX)(Job 5:15, 16; 20:19; 24:4, 6, 22; 29:16; 30:25; 31:16, 20, 34; 34:20; 36:15, 19; Pr 30:18; Joel 3:10) and 10 uses in the NT. Note the obvious concentration of "impossibilities" in the book of Hebrews!


    Some compare this verse with the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Jesus referred to in Mt 12:31,32. For example, John Calvin espouses this view but still thinks they are believers!

    Some translate adunatos (impossible) with the English word “difficult.”, something that is difficult to do if one adheres to normal rules of Biblical interpretation (hermeneutics). Specifically as noted above every other use of adunatos translated impossible! Thus it is clear from these other passages that such a translation is unjustified.


    !
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    From AWPink;
    "If they shall fall away". The Greek word here is very strong and emphatic, even stronger than the one used in Matthew 7:27, where it is said of the house built on the sand, "and great was the fall thereof". It is a complete falling away, a total abandonment of Christianity which is here in view. It is a wilful turning of the back on God’s revealed truth, an utter repudiation of the Gospel. It is making "shipwreck of the faith" (1 Tim. 1:19). This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin", this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.

    "If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’. The apostle obviously intimates that such persons might, and that such persons did, ‘fall away’. By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

    "It is impossible . . . if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance". Four questions here call for answer. What is meant by "renewed unto repentance"? What is signified by "renewed again unto repentance"? Why is such an experience "impossible"? To whom is this "impossible"? Repentance signifies a change of mind: Matthew 21:29, Romans 11:29 establish this. It is more than a mental act, the conscience also being active, leading to contrition and self-condemnation (Job 42:6). In the unregenerate, it is simply the workings of nature; in the children of God it is wrought by the Holy Spirit. The latter is evangelical, being one of the things which "accompany salvation". The former is not so, being the "sorrow of the world", which "worketh death" (2 Cor. 7:10). This kind of "repentance" or remorse receives most solemn exemplification in the case of Judas: Matthew 27:3, 5. Such was the repentance of these apostates. The Greek verb for "renew" here occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. Probably "restore" had been better, for the same word is used in the Sept., for a Hebrews verb meaning to renew in the sense of restore: Psalm 103:5; 104:30; Lamentations 5:21. Josephus applies it to the renovation of the Temple!
     
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  10. Iconoclast

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    William Gouge;
    Sec. 87. Of an hypocrite's fall, ver. 6.

    The apostle having declared in the two former verses how far an hypocrite may ascend on the ladder of salvation, in this sixth verse he declareth how far he may fall down. The main point is expressed in this phrase, if they shall fall away. In Greek thus, and falling away. For it depends on the former, thus, 'it is impossible, that person enlightened, &c.; and falling away,' &c.

    The Greek particle, crogaTfffovraj, is a compound, and here only used, and nowhere else throughout the New Testament. The simple verb, uvVrw, signifieth to fall. Of it see Chap. iii. 17, Sec. 168. The preposition Tasa, with which it is compounded, signifieth from. The compound verb, fl-aga.a/orw, to fall from a thing, or to fall clean away. The metaphor may be taken from an house that is fairly built above ground, but the foundation thereof not sound. The fall of such an house useth to be a total or universal fall, not of this or that part alone. Christ, speaking of the fall of such an house, saith, ' Great was the fall of it,' Mat. vii. 27.

    This metaphor may also be taken from a man that, having ascended high on a ladder, falleth down to the bottom, and so bruiseth his body and breaketh his bones, as he is not able to rise up again. Thus the falling here spoken of, is not a falling away only from some particular graces and gifts received, nor from some measure of them, but a total and universal falling from them all, as in 'the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation,' Jude 6.

    That the fall here spoken of may the better be discerned, I will here more distinctly shew how far such as profess the gospel (for the description before mentioned, vers. 4, 5, is of such) may fall.

    Falling away may have respect to the measure or continuance of grace.

    In regard of the measure, some fall away in part, some in whole.

    In regard of continuanoe, some so fall as they recover themselves again, some so as they can never be recovered. .

    Both the degrees of the measure, namely, partial and total, have respect to the outward profession, and to the inward disposition of him that falleth away.

    In profession he falleth away in part who denieth some of those principles of religion which formerly he professed, as Peter and Barnabas, Gal. ii. 12.

    In disposition he falleth away in part, who, through his own weakness, carelessness, or temptations, decayeth in those graces which once he had, at least in the measure, power, and comfort of them. Hereof Bee Chap. iii. 12, Sec. 186.

    In profession, he wholly falleth away who renounceth all his religion, even that whole faith which once he professed; as those Levites in the captivity, whom God afterwards, though they repented, would not admit to offer sacrifice before him, Ezok. xliv. 9, 10, and many Christians in the ten fiery persecutions, and many of our countrymen in Queen Mary's days.

    They in disposition wholly fall away who do not only deny the faith, but also clean put away a good conscience, 1 Tim. i. 19, and iv. 1, 2. Hence followeth hatred of the truth, persecution against the preachers and professors thereof, and blasphemy against Christ himself. Such were many of the pharisees, Mark iii. 80; Hymeneus and Alexander, 1 Tim. i. 20, and Julian. These and such other fall away toli, wholly, in outward profession and inward disposition, in tongue and heart; and a toto, from the whole, even from all the articles of Christian religion; and in totum, to the whole, or for ever, even with a

    settled peremptory resolution never to return to the religion again.

    They that fall away in these last respects are such as are here meant.

    Seeing there are such degrees of falling away, let us take heed of proceeding from one degree to another. Let us carefully look both to our profession and disposition. If by our own weakness, or any temptation, we be brought any way to decay in grace, let us not renounce the faith. If by fear or other temptation we be brought to deny it, let us not put away a good conscience. If in part we be brought to do it, let us not still go on to add one degree to another, so as we should wholly fall from the whole for ever, which is a most fearful case.

    The fore-mentioned degrees of falling away are to be noted, against the errors of Novatus.1 He lived in the year of our Lord 258. He came from Africa to Rome. There fell an emulation betwixt him and Cornelius, bishop of Rome, that Cornelius had admitted into the church, upon their repentance, some that had fallen away in the seventh persecution under Decius. Hereupon Novatus published that none who had offered sacrifice to the heathen gods were to be admitted to repentance. He pressed this text to justify his error
     
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  11. SovereignGrace

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    I take comfort in these words...

    Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.[Hebrews 6:9]
     
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  12. Samuels

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    Perhaps you should consider it.
    I see many verses that warn about it.
    And somehow I don't think God is lying.
     
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  13. tyndale1946

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    Me neither TC!... Scripture states "I have loved the with an everlasting love"... If the love mentioned is everlasting they could not have fallen from the everlasting love of God... Although some say they can?... Does scripture contradict itself?... Scripture is in perfect harmony if properly applied... Misapply the truth and you have the sinner saving himself and you kicked "GRACE" out the door... Brethren it's either works or grace... Brother Glen
     
  14. Samuels

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    Sorry for the delay ...
    I'm trying to figure out how everything works.

    Yes, God is love, and it really is a big question:
    Will He be saving all of those Israelites who so
    horrendously rebelled against Him continually?
    And ditto for believers today who are displaying
    their unbelief when they are disobedient to Him
    by continuing in their sin after being born again.
    Romans and Hebrews both try to teach us ...
    disobedience is the same as unbelief.
    Jesus said if you love Him, you will obey Him.
    So, another question: Does anyone get to heaven
    who does not love Jesus?
     
  15. Internet Theologian

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    Perhaps you 'miss' see many verses. Of all that come to Jesus by the Father, He will lose none, note John 6:39.

    Please do share your verses that you 'miss' see which undo what Jesus said.
     
  16. Internet Theologian

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    You're conflating profession of faith with possession of faith. Yes, disobedience is the same as unbelief, so, those who continually live in disobedience and sin yet claim to be believers are not truly converted. Therefore claiming they've lost salvation is a misnomer.

    You've melded the two and have come up with the disobedient as having lost salvation, when in fact they were never saved to begin with. You need some 2 Timothy 2:15 training.
     
    #16 Internet Theologian, Jul 3, 2016
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  17. Samuels

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    Jesus explained there are both wheat and tares in
    the kingdom, and they are quite indistinguishable.
    God gives the wheat and Satan gives the tares.
    Can the tares receive the Holy Spirit?

    If not, then the many verses written to the churches
    that warn about eternal death were written only to
    the unsaved tares in the churches.

    What about those verses that speak of falling away,
    drawing back, and many other similar verses,
    such as the 15 that say we must continue/endure
    in the faith until we die in order to receive eternal life?

    And there are many other topics (each supported
    by several verses) that threaten loss of salvation!
    But, the key is: salvation is a process!
    To think it is a one-time event is totally against
    all that the New Testament teaches.
     
    #17 Samuels, Jul 3, 2016
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  18. tyndale1946

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    You got the cart before the horse it is true we get to heaven because we love Jesus but according to 1 John this is the only reason any of us will be in heaven... And btw we don't deserve it, though there are some that think they are entitled though your condition says your not... Brother Glen

    1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
     
  19. Samuels

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    You got the horse first, the cart second, and then me.
    Now, how do I have the order wrong?
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Welcome Samuels (me)... Well IT seems to think you need a little 2 Timothy 2:15 training that maybe so but I think a sweet dose of DoG (Doctrines Of Grace) is in order... The following will get you started... Brother Glen

    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     

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