If we Are NOT Born Spiritual dead, than Why would the Holy Spirit Convict us of Sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

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    if His ministry is to convict world of its sin, why would he need to do so to a world where all people are born spirtually alive to God?
    Would all people just receive jesus as Lord, and all would be saved?
     
  2. Winman

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    People aren't spiritually alive. You cannot convict someone of sin who has no sin.

    What Webdog and myself believe is that men are not born "sinners". I believe we are clearly born with the ability to sin, but having the ability to sin does not make you a sinner, actually committing sin makes you a sinner.

    Do I have the ability to be a bank robber? Yes. Am I a bank robber? No, at least not yet, I have never robbed a bank.

    I think some folks think you have to have a sin nature to sin. This is easily proved false by scripture. Adam and Eve were created "very good". They had no sin nature. Were they able to sin? Yes, and did!

    Was Satan created evil? No, the scriptures say he was perfect in the day he was created. He was not created with a sin nature. Could Satan sin? Yes, and did!

    So, you do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin, this is proved by scripture.

    The scriptures say we are flesh. That is the term used. The flesh has lusts and desires, but lust and desires do not equal sin. Sin is something you do, something you commit. The scriptures are clear that God judges us for what we do, not for what we can potentially do.

    2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    We are not judged because we have the ability and potential to sin, we are to be judged for the actual things we do, whether it be good or bad.

    A baby can do neither good or evil, the scriptures show this as well.

    Rom 9: (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    This verse is speaking of Esau and Jacob when they were in their mother Rebecca's womb. They were very much alive when God spoke to Rebecca, and Paul shows that they had done neither good or evil. Little babies cannot do good or evil, they can barely do anything at all, but certainly not sin.

    Now, when children get older they can certainly sin and do. And when a child gets old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly sins, then they spiritually die. And this happens to every single person without exception (except of course Jesus Christ).

    That God does not hold small children accountable is shown by example in Deut 1:39.

    Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    When the children of Israel sinned against God in the wilderness, he swore they would not enter the promised land. But the children who had no knowledge between good and evil in that day the sin was committed were allowed to enter.
     
    #2 Winman, Apr 28, 2011
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  3. TomVols

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    You'll find some Arminians who would hold to a universalist position, and some others who argue there though they say they don't believe it.

    However, many around here would likely say they do not believe that people are born alive to God. They would argue that they're just not spiritually dead - more stuck in neutral than anything. They then become guilty at a time and place of their own choice where they choose to reject Christ upon first awareness of their guilt. They then require conviction to move them from "neutrality" to a place of choosing Christ, or conviction to become aware of their guilt. (Of course, how did they get guilty? But that's another story.....)

    Like I said, you always have extremists, and I'm getting more and more surprised at those who are. Some say prevenient grace is more prevenient than others, but the view expressed above tends to be a default position. The first part of your question is a good one, but I suspect people will bristle heavily at the second one, though some who do so will invariably end up there logically.
     
  4. DHK

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    You have some fallacies here.
    1. No one said people are spiritually alive when they are born or before they are regenerated. They are not.
    2. There is no one who has no sin. We are born sinners; born with sin. That is the reason we need to be saved.
    3. We are spiritually dead. This is where the confusion lays. What does this mean. The Calvinist usually defines it as "lifeless" and thus goes to the second birth. That is not good hermeneutics. Death does not mean lifeless. It simply means "separation." God created each and every one of us in his image and likeness, and that means he created us with a spirit. We all have a spirit. We are spiritually dead when unsaved. That means that our spirit is separated from God by sin. It does not mean that it is lifeless. It means that it needs to be reconciled to God by means of the Holy Spirit and the Word. The spirit was always there; always alive; but inoperable, separated from God. That separation is called death. It wasn't dead in the sense of lifelessness. It was dead in the sense that it was separated from God by sin.
     
  5. Winman

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    Some may believe that, but that was not my case. I accepted Jesus when I was around 10-11 years old. I clearly knew I was a sinner. I knew I had told lies and been disobedient to my parents. I understood what "thou shalt not bear false witness" and "honour thy father and thy mother" meant. So, I clearly knew and understood I had sinned against God. I knew this before I heard the gospel. In fact, I knew it for years before I actually heard the gospel.
     
  6. Winman

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    I understand your position perfectly and held this position for many years because that is what I had been taught in church. But as I studied the scriptures I came to a different view.

    The thing that really convinced me we are not born spiritually dead is that the scriptures say Jesus had the same nature we have.

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    #1 Jesus was flesh and blood. What do the scriptures say about flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of heaven?

    #2 He took on the nature of the seed of Abraham.

    #3 In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren.

    #4 he suffered being tempted.

    God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13) but Jesus clearly was. How? If he inherited his nature from God then he could not be tempted. So, obviously he inherited this ability to be tempted from his mother.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    #5 Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS like as we are. Again, God cannot be tempted with evil, so Jesus must have inherited at least part of his nature from his mother.

    So, the scriptures clearly show Jesus had the same nature we are born with. I ask you, does Jesus have a sin nature? I say no.

    You can try to wiggle out of this, but Jesus was born with the same nature we are born with. If we have a sin nature at birth, then so did Jesus. But if Jesus was not born with a sin nature, then neither are we.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Think this is why we MUST be born again, as per Jesus...
    Our spirits might indeed be alive, BUT we cannot perceive/experience/ have a relationship with the Lord, due to our sin natures..

    Don't know what all Calvinists think on this, my take is that the depravity part relates to us NOT being able to come to a saving knowledge of the lord apart from the Grace of God...

    We might seek after God, But unless he 'wakes" us up to the need for Jesus, convicts us of sins, reveals Jesus and the Cross as manditory for us to believe in/on
    We cannot find the Lord w/o Him intervening on our behalf...

    So would say we are alive as beings, can even seek God, find religions BUT He HAS to quicken waken us up in order to be able to receive the grace he bestows upon all those chosen in Christ Jesus Unto Eternal Life!
     
    #7 JesusFan, Apr 28, 2011
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  8. JesusFan

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    Too bad no scripture agrees with you had this point...
     
  9. Winman

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    Yes, we must be born again, but think about that term. What does AGAIN mean? It means we were born once.

    Look at all the scriptures that say we are sinners and you will see they all say we "went astray" or "turned".

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    If we are born sinners, how can you go astray? How can you "turn" to sin if you are born a sinner?

    Look at Jesus's description of sinners in Luke 15.

    Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Jesus describes us as sheep he owned who went astray and got lost. How could we be one of Jesus's sheep if we were born sinners?

    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
    9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
    10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    Again, Jesus here describes us as a piece of silver that a woman had in her possession but lost. How could we have ever been in possession of God if we are born sinners?

    Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
    12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
    13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
    14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
    15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
    16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
    18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
    19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
    20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
    21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
    22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
    23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Again, we see here this father HAD two sons, but one went astray and was lost. But originally he was alive as shown in verse 24 "alive AGAIN".

    So, the scriptures do not show us born dead or lost. We are born belonging to God and then we all go astray and turn to our own ways and become lost.

    Jesus is no fool, he knows exactly how to express doctrine. He clearly shows here that persons are not born lost, but are lost afterward.
     
    #9 Winman, Apr 28, 2011
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  10. JesusFan

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    So you are saying all humans are born inheritly 'good' than fall into sin?
    So all humans have potential to save themselves than, as we can decide NOT to sin, as we have 'good" natures, and so ONLY those among us who actual choose to sin would need the Saviour, rest of us save ourselves?
     
  11. DHK

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    Not necessarily.
    Here are some other, perhaps more accurate translations:

    Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (John 3:3) (Young's Literal)

    (ISV) Jesus replied to him, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    (NET) Jesus replied,6 "I tell you the solemn truth,7 unless a person is born from above,8 he cannot see the kingdom of God."9

    The term is "born from above," and a number of others have translated it as "born anew."
     
  12. Winman

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    No, we are born flesh with lusts and desires. But we are not guilty of sin until we actually commit sin.

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    We all have lusts and desires. We are designed that way. These lusts and desires are not necessarily evil. It is not evil to be hungry, we need to eat to be healthy. It is not wrong to have sexual desire, God designed us to enjoy sex within marriage.

    It is when we step outside the boundaries God has set for us that we sin. If you eat too much you are a glutton, you can become obese and suffer serious health problems. If we allow our sexual desires to control us, we can participate in sin outside of marriage. We could contract a terrible disease or seriously hurt our spouse and loved ones.

    When Eve saw the fruit in the garden, it was not wrong that it looked beautiful and good to eat. It was not wrong for her to desire to be wise, the scriptures tell us it is good to be wise. The problem was, God had directly commanded her and Adam not to eat of this fruit. When they stepped outside the boundary God had set, they sinned.

    It is not wrong to want a car. A car is very useful. But it is wrong to steal a car that does not belong to you.

    As for sinning, do you blame God by saying he gave you a nature that forces you to sin? I have sinned many times in my life, but I have never had to sin, nobody put a gun to my head (and that would not be sin but coercion anyway).

    Are you telling me you HAVE to sin?

    Jesus said the flesh is weak. I take this to mean we are very easily tempted. We are not strong in resisting sin.

    Matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    Do you see what Jesus said here? The spirit is willing. It often wants to do well. But the flesh exerts a strong influence over us. I have been tired like this, I had to take some re-certification classes at work not long ago. It was a lot of information and fairly complex. I tried to pay attention, but after six or so hours I began to get very groggy. I wanted to listen and pay attention, but my body was overpowering my will. I had to ask my instructor to take a little break so I could walk around a bit and get a cup of coffee.

    Paul describes the unsaved man like this in Romans 7. He is not really describing himself, because he was already delivered from sin. But he was speaking as an unsaved person.

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Note here: Paul is not describing a saved person here. A saved person is not sold under sin.

    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Paul shows here that an unsaved person can will to do well. But the flesh pulls and tugs at us, and often we allow ourselves to be controlled by sinful desires. This is when we sin.

    Now, I do believe this, the more we sin, the stronger the sinful desires can become. A person starts out with one cigarette. At this point they are not controlled by the desire for nicotine and can easily quit. But if that person continues to smoke for a few weeks, they will become addicted and have a very difficult time quitting.

    No one is born a drunkard. No, it is after a person drinks awhile that they become addicted to alcohol. The same can be said for drugs.

    People don't usually rob a bank for their first crime. No, most people start small, shoplifting or stealing money from a family member. As they continue they may start to break into houses or steal cars. One day they decide to rob a store or a bank.

    So, the more you give in to sin, the more you become the servant of sin.

    John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    Many people falsely teach we sin because we are slaves to sin. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Jesus said. Jesus said those who sin become slaves to sin.

    Nobody has to sin. To say you must sin because you are born with a sinful nature is to deny responsibility for yourself and blame God.
     
    #12 Winman, Apr 28, 2011
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  13. jimiam

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    Man is born with a self intuition of right and wrong. He does not always do right, but he knows the difference. Sociologists and others have shown this to be true via the cultural laws existing among all groups of peoples from the dawning of recorded history.

    Arminianism has it's stronger points, but denial of inherited sin is not one of them and seemingly appears to quickly break down from such a perspective.
     
    #13 jimiam, Apr 28, 2011
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  14. Winman

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    Well, you believe Augustine and Calvin, I prefer what Jesus taught in Luke 15. In all three parables he relates something that is not lost to begin with, that becomes lost afterward and then is recovered. And he is speaking of sinners. These parables are simple and easily understood unless a person holds a presupposition.

    You can't go astray unless you were first in the flock.
     
  15. jimiam

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    Adam and Eve were the original breeding stock of the flock my brother. You and I in essence, went astray with them.
    However, greater authority than Calvin and Augustine agree with me. :)
     
    #15 jimiam, Apr 28, 2011
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  16. Winman

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    I could care less if the whole world agrees with you.

    The man had one hundred sheep and one was lost.

    The woman had ten coins and one was lost.

    The father had two sons, one departed and became lost. When he returned his father said he was ALIVE AGAIN.

    How can you be alive AGAIN if you were born dead?

    These parables are not speaking of Adam, unless you believe there were 99 other men around.

    Nice try though.
     
  17. revmwc

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    Luke 15 Jesus told this parable after questions arose from the Pharisee's as to His associating with sinners. These, Pharisee legalist believed that to eat drink and speak with these sinners was a great sin, all through the years of the Lord's gracious ministry here on earth these legalistic minded people failed to understand His interest in lost, sinful men and women.

    The 99 represented the legalistic, those who felt they need no salvation because, they were righteous.
    They didn't consider themselves lost, so they did not think they needed to be sought and found.
    The lost sheep is the sinner who knows he is lost, and needs a savior.
    The shepherd leaves the 99 in the wilderness, in their self-complacency,
    And He goes out in search of the lost, and He doesn't give up till He finds it.
    The shepherd went seeking
    The word seek tells the pursuing love of God.
    No man seeks God, but God seeks man.
    Man doesn't come to God until he hears God calling him.
    Most people seem to be unaware of God, or are so intent on the affairs of life that they are deaf and indifferent;
    But their secret heart tells a different story.
    Conscience in them proves to be the catalyst the shepherd needs, and pity is His shadow falling across their wandering.

    The shepherd seeks "until,"
    "Until" tells the unwavering persistence of God's love.
    "Until" is Luke's word; Matthew 18:13, says "if."
    Luke tells of God's concern for any lost sheep: Matthew's account says "these little ones,"
    Therefore from the Matthew account the lost sheep would be the believer who has gone astray, while Luke is referring to the unbeliever.
    The good Shepherd came seeking the lost to bring them salvation, but He also cares when the believer goes astray too.
    Luke 15:7 holds the key to the 99 as our Lord says, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." The 99 were the legalist of Christ day and they are those of our day. Those who need no salvation by the Great Shepherd, they are standing on their religion and its rules and teachings.
     
  18. revmwc

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    Luke 15 Continued:
    In the second part of the parable the Lord deals with a lost coin.

    In order to illustrate our utter helplessness and need of divine enablement we see the lost coin.
    Verses 8-10 give the picture and it is a beautiful picture.
    One of ten pieces of Silver is lost.

    These pieces of silver were joined together in a chain and given by the husband to seal the marriage ceremony.
    They were worn across the wife's forehead and valued as a wedding ring is among us.
    If one coin came up missing it was thought to be a sign of the wife's unfaithfulness to her husband.
    Naturally the woman had a coin come up missing she would say, "What will my husband say if he should come home and find I have lost one of theses pieces?"
    In her trouble she lighted a candle and swept the floor carefully,
    And finally she found the coin, which had been lost.
    She goes to her neighbors rejoicing over the coin which was found.

    She then carefully put the coin back where it belonged.
    It was necessary that she be active in order to recover the coin.
    It could not find its way back to her.

    In this portion of the parable we see the Holy Spirit working through His people.
    We have our part in seeking for the lost, both believers out of fellowship and unbelievers.
    All rejoice when one is saved or comes back to the Lord.
     
  19. revmwc

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    Luke 15 continued:
    The third part of the parable deals with the lost son.

    It is probably the tenderest story that our Lord Jesus ever related while here on earth.
    It is a story, which we all know well,
    And yet it never seems to lose its sweetness and preciousness.
    In the first part one sheep was lost.
    In the second part a coin was lost, and now a son is lost.

    There were two sons and one was lost.
    These two sons are typical of all mankind.
    Here we think of God as the Father of spirits
    The creator of all men.
    While the Word of God gives no support of the universal fatherhood of God and universal brotherhood of man;

    Not being content to wait for the father to pass away the youngest ask for his inheritance.
    The Father yielded to him and counted out to him that which was his.
    And, not many days after the younger son gathered all and took his journey into a far country.
    There he wasted his living we are told.
    There he could live, as he liked, in independence of his father's will.

    Then we are told he had his fling until as was gone.
    The famine hits the land when he is broke.
    It is not a question of the amount of sin one commits that makes him a prodigal.
    This young man was just as truly a sinner against his father's love the moment the moment he crossed the threshold of the door as he went to the far country.
    He did not want to be subject to his father; he desired to get away where he could live as he pleased.
    The father did not follow him.
    He did not insist that the son return, but he allowed him to go and learn some lessons, which he never could have learned in any other way.
    Then when he had squandered all he found himself in dire need.

    The friends he had made were gone with the money.
    When all was gone his fair-weathered friends had left.
    They left him in his distress and no one helped him.
    In order to keep from starving he became a hired hand on a pig farm, a job no self-respecting Jew would have ever done.
    From these unclean beast he begin to realize his sin.

    He couldn't feed upon the food of the swine and be happy.
    No one can live in sin and be happy.
    God put in us a desire that only He could satisfy.
    Sin is a terrible thing; it is insanity.
    The young man had suffered in mental agony, but now he regained his mind.

    He begin to realize for the first time the fool he had been in turning away from his fathers house.
    In trying to find satisfaction in the world.
    This young man came to himself; he begin to think.
    If you can get people to think then something will happen.
    When men begin to think they are well on their way to salvation.
    This young man came to that place.
    He realized what a fool he had been.

    That young man in his feeling of unworthiness had determined what he would say.
    He was going to confess his unworthiness to be called a son.
    He comes home to a grand welcome by his father.
    But his brother is just a Pharisee, who would not dare to say he was saved and would not say he was lost.
    In his heart there was no more love for the father than there had been in the younger son.
    He was like the scribes and Pharisees, which had murmured against our Lord.
    He felt his father was disregarding himself by treating the younger like that, one who had misbehaved as he had done.
    He was angry and would not go in.
    He had in him the same spirit as the younger, which had driven him into the far country.
    This son had remained at home and was more respectful, but he was no better than his younger brother was.
    The older brother was as the legalist; he couldn't understand the grace of God. It is utterly foreign to him.
     
  20. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Final
    This parable teaches all of us a valuable lesson. We all have worth in God's eyes. We are all worthy to be sought after and found by God. He uses all kinds of tools to reach us. The shepherd went and found the sheep, which he knew was lost and he knew about where to look. The woman swept the house after lighting the lamp to find the coin. Again she knew where to look. The father didn't follow the younger son, but had he known where to find him he would have gone after him. God always knows where to find us and He always seeks us, both saved and out of fellowship and the lost. We as His followers are to seek all the lost both sinning saints and sinning unbelievers, that is what God wants, that is how His grace works.
     

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