If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gunther, Jun 23, 2003.

  1. Gunther

    Gunther
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    This is something that I have wondered about for a long time. If a person trusts in their own effort to sustain them and keep themselves from losing their salvation, what is the real object of their faith? Themselves.

    I completely reject the idea that a person can lose their salvation. There is not a single text that can support this idea without ignoring or twisting other passages.

    So, does anyone else see things the same way?
     
  2. Yelsew

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    If one is in the condition of your first paragraph, were they saved?

    Do you agree that one can simply stop believing in anything? If you say 'Yes', then you must also believe that one can lose his/her salvation. For salvation is a matter of personal individual belief, and nothing more. If you stop believing in God, he has no obligation to save you.
     
  3. Carson Weber

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    Hi Gunther,

    To acknowledge that your salvation can be lost does not thereby mean that you trust in your own efforts. We are kept holy and undefiled by the grace of Jesus Christ, which can be rejected through sin.

    Our salvation can only be lost by commiting a mortal sin (see 1 John 5) such as murder, adultery, fornication, etc., which entails our free choice to reject the gift of God's grace. This is what the Prodigal Son did in Jesus' parable recounted in Luke, Chapter 15.

    To lose one's salvation is precisely the result of losing faith in Jesus Christ. It is precisely the abandonment of trust in him to keep you holy. It is precisely rejecting the free gift of salvation through the action of turning away from Jesus Christ in sin.

    You wrote, "I completely reject the idea that a person can lose their salvation. There is not a single text that can support this idea without ignoring or twisting other passages."

    Are you kidding with me? Sometimes I wonder if individuals such as yourself actually read the Bible. The New Testament is full of such passages. Here are some prime examples, brother:

    Beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. (2 Peter 3:17,18)

    Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that ... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20)

    You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; ... you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

    Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise ... you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)

    For ... if ... after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the ... knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, ... the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20-22)

    in the body of His flesh through death, to ... present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight ... if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, ... and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Colossians 1:22,23)

    For ... it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, ... if they fall away, ... to renew them again to repentance, since ... they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

    He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and ... I will not blot out his
    name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Revelation 3:5)

    For ... if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there ... no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, ... but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26,27)

    For we have become partakers of Christ ... if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end (Hebrews 3:14)
     
  4. 3AngelsMom

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    For once Carson, we are in complete agreement.

    Gunther,

    Just because one believes that they can lose their salvation, does not mean that they are living a life that they hope will save them.

    I am trusting Christ to save me, for there is nothing that I can do of myself that could.

    I firmly believe, however, that if I were to turn my back on God, and STOP trusting Christ for my Salvation, I would be lost, and most likely die in my sins.

    I say most likely because for someone to reach the point of losing their salvation, after having come to a Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, they must live in a very sinful life. Wordly, lustly, violently, and completely reprobate.

    That lifestyle, more often than not, ends in death.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
  5. Me2

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    we all have one spirit each.
    either an old unrighteous one
    or a new righteous one.

    Once exchanged by God, it cannot be unexchanged.
    nor does God change his mind..

    Once someone has received a new spirit.
    It cannot be returned.

    The challenge God sets before man is to choose to learn what the new spirit is, or not. It concerns regenerating their mind. not their "new spirit".

    either one determines to be disobedient and not learn what their new life will become through the regeneration of their carnal mind.
    or they will choose to be obedient and humble themselves through regeneration of their minds and choose to live after Gods suggestive choices.

    being saved concerns wether one has Gods spirit or not. and not wether a person regenerates their carnal mind.

    (the real question should be. Is your spirit judged and replaced before you encounter the revelation that Jesus is your propitiator, in your carnal reasonings?)
     
  6. Gunther

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    Carson, I am fully aware of all of those passages. Yes, I can assure you that I do read the N.T.

    None of those passages support the idea you can lose your salvation.

    In fact, I would use them to prove otherwise.

    3angelsmom, you are of the belief that a person who is genuinely born again actually can turn away. That is very problematic.

    When a person is justified, he is imputed with the righteousness of Christ. He has peace with God. He can rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

    Such a person will NEVER WANT to turn away. You seem to think that a person might want to turn away. A genuine believer never will.

    Carson, back to the issue, apparently you are trusting in your personal ability. You even say as much. You trust Jesus for salvation and yourself to keep it. According to you, if certain sins are committed, that nullifies the work of Christ, his ability to keep a person, etc.

    Does not Jude say, "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling..." NKJV?
     
  7. faithcontender

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    Here are fifty reasons why salvation can not be lost taken from http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/main/50reasons.htm, by Timothy S. Morton

    1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

    2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believer’s behavior.

    3. IT IS GOD’S WILL! John 6:39; It is God’s will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

    4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in heaven is reserved for the believer.

    5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

    6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

    7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break God’s seal.

    8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

    9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

    10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

    11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13 The believer actually becomes God’s child and cannot be “unborn.”

    12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can “uncreate” him.

    13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

    14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

    15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

    16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him.

    17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

    18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

    19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ’s love.

    20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all God’s work. He bought it and provided it.

    21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer’s salvation rests on God’s omnipotent ability to keep him.

    22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

    23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

    24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

    25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

    26. HE IS IN CHRIST’S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviours hand.

    27. HE IS IN THE FATHER’S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father’s hand.

    28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

    29. GOD’S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God’s mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

    30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, he cannot go back on His word.

    31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17, 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

    32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

    33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God’s sight.

    34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christian’s new birth was from incorruptible seed.

    35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

    36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

    37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint’s destiny. He is freed from it.

    38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer’s behalf.

    39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Phillipians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

    40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

    41. HIS LIFE IS CHRIST’S LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christ’s very own life, so how could it be lost?

    42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life.

    43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

    44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

    45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christ’s perfect righteousness.

    46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christ’s body. “Bone of His bone....”

    47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

    48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRIST’S IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestinated.

    49. CHRIST’S BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

    50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION!
     
  8. BrianT

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    And yet so many verses warn against falling away...
     
  9. faithcontender

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    Those who fall away are not really saved at all:

    2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
     
  10. BrianT

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    By definition, to fall away you have to be in one place and then leave it. If you were never in the place to begin with, it wouldn't be falling away from that place.

    Also, if you are correct about those that fall away never being saved in the first place, *why* would scripture warn against falling away, if those that fall away are no worse off? In other words, if falling away has no effect, why the warnings against it?
     
  11. Bro. Curtis

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    I'm pretty sure David thought his salvation was lost, after his incident with Uriah. Murder and adultery. But it wasn't. Sometimes the sin in our lives becomes so strong that we do doubt our savior's promise. But our salvation is not based on our feelings. It is a promise, and there are just too many verses in the Bible to support the "Once saved is saved once".

    I'm not going to debate it. But my belief is salvation is complete, for eternity, no matter what we feel.
     
  12. Me2

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    whoa back up, on this falling away stuff...

    if a person contains the seed of God (spirit)
    they are saved positionally..in christ

    whether obedient, or disobedient.
    whether wise, or foolish.

    now being "saved" experientially is another matter.
    some are tried as children, in trials of faith.
    some succeed, while others fail. (or fall away)

    but none become lost, or loose posession of the seed of God that is within them .
     
  13. Lorelei

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    You are exactly right. There is only one way to salvation and that is through faith in Christ. However, a misunderstanding of this fact does not necessarily mean a person is lost.

    If a person who is weak in faith and ignorant of the scriptures believes they can lose their salvation, they may really be counting on Christ to save them, but are confused about how that works. Satan loves to make one doubt what God can do. I have a friend who believes just that. I asked them this weekend this one question. "Does your salvation count on Christ, or on you?" That question seemed to confuse her and it should.

    Then there are people who honestly believe you can lose your salvation. These are the people who truly believe that keeping their salvation depends upon their own actions. That isn't biblical salvation at all.

    People believe we can lose salvation because people simply have a problem grasping the forgiveness and love that salvation entails. They want to think God is like man, unforgiving and demanding. They want to think God bases our worth on what we do and how good we are. That is what man bases worth on, not God. None of us are worthy in God's eyes and none of us ever will be without the blood of Jesus hiding the filth upon us.

    Here is a question that no one has ever answered for me, at least not scripturally. My friend's pastor believes you can lose your salvation. However, he used to believe you could lose it for smoking, and drinking occassionaly. He used to be really legalistic, now he doesn't. Now he seems to be more like catholic and has his own labels of "mortal sins" that will cause one to lose their salvation. My question is, which sin is the one sin that causes you to lose it and how many times must one sin before Christ takes away something he called "eternal" to begin with? People love to believe that you can, but scripture never tells us how, because the teaching is not scriptural.

    This verse was used to prove you can lose your salvation, but for that to be true, it would mean there is no getting it back, ever.

    The one thing people do not want to believe is that there is no second chance. This verse merely proves that if God's salvation wasn't enough, then we have NO hope of ever being saved. It is impossible for anyone who has fallen away to be brought back to repentance! So either you have it or you don't. The words "eternal" life, are just that, eternal. You are not only promised eternal life, God has given us His Spirit guaranteeing it.

    ~Lorelei
     
  14. BrianT

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    Anyone going to address the verses Carson posted? Why does scripture warn against falling away, if it's an impossibility? Are these verses not relevant or true?
     
  15. faithcontender

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    One example of falling away is Judas Iscariot. He pretended to be one of disciples but Jesus knew it that He didn't believe in the first place.

    John
    6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
     
  17. Yelsew

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    Gunther,
    Do you agree that any individual can stop believing that which one once believed?

    If you do, then you must also agree than one can lose one's salvation through failure to continue in one's belief in Jesus.

    Once one stops believing in Jesus, one condemns one's self, because one goes from belief to unbelief, there are no other possibilities. Jesus said so in John 3:18.
     
  18. Gunther

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    Yelsew, I do not believe that.

    Those who are truly justified (imputed), will only grow in grace. He cannot quit.
     
  19. Yelsew

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    Just what does "imputed" mean to you? List the ingredience of "imputed", define how it is accomplished.

    After six decades of being human and observing humanity, I can tell you that man does, in truth, "change his mind", which includes ceasing to believe that which was formerly believed. When I was a child, it was believed that the moon was "made of cheese"! Man's desire to go there was merely wishful thinking. Our minds have been changed about the moon because "we have been there".

    When I was a child, airplanes big and small were pulled through the sky with propellers. Though propellers are still in use, the major means of propulsion is turbofan Jet engines that push the airplane through the air. We've changed our mind!

    When I was a child, there was but two computers in the world, and no one in their wildest imaginings could conceive of an "internet". Yet, today there are millions of homes throughout the world that have computers, one of which has 10 thousand times greater computing power than the first computers ever could have. The hand held calculator is more powerful than the first computer that took up several floors of a university building. The vast majority of today's computers are connected to "the internet" and we communicate using them. We have changed our minds.

    What now is, was not! What is not may someday be! We change our minds in virtually every aspect of life, including spiritual matters. What was believed to be true in the "dark ages" is no longer believed! We've changed our mind!

    One in your profession should clearly understand that mankind is constantly changing it's mind individually and collectively. That which was believed ceases to be believed, and that which is not believed becomes that which is believed.

    That is why we are reminded to "keep the faith baby". If we fail to come together for regular meetings and worship, we are very susceptable to losing our faith.

    Scripture tells us that once saved we are never alone, but in order to retain the faith, we must do things that remind us of our faith such as communion, and gathering together for the purpose of worship and edification.
     
  20. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    when you were saved..didnt you receive a brand new sinless spirit..you know, the one that jesus took into death. and was resurrected with.
    the selfsame spirit that now even death cannot hold any claim or power against.
    the same spirit that your very soul is connected to and will always be identified with. the one that has the right to exist for an eternity, because it is perfect and a very part of God.

    We humans cannot live without a spirit. we were born with one that was legally cursed. but yet God himself comes to man and gives us this new free spirit to replace our old infected one.

    we simply cant give back a spirit that our very being is connected to. nor would God give us back our old defective spirit.

    and without a spirit, wouldnt we die ?.

    sorry, But, If you've got a new spirit.
    your stuck with it.
     

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