If you died in the next 15 minutes - - -

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TexasSky, Aug 11, 2005.

  1. TexasSky

    TexasSky
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    I see a lot of assumptions on these boards that if the general public full of total strangers or historians don't write about someone's personal relationship with Christ, that person can't be a Christian. It made me wonder - If you died in the next 15 minutes who would assume you are going to heaven? Would historians write about your faith? Would the AP press pick it up? If they interviewed your coworkers, would one of them say, "Their faith in Christ was important to them!"

    Who would stand before men to testify about YOUR relationship to Christ in a manner that even strangers would say, "Yes, they were a Christian."

    Your family?
    Your friends?
    Members of your church?
    Your pastor?
    Your neighbor?
    Your coworkers?
    The clerk at the grocery store?
    The guy who cut you off in traffic?

    If no one would - not one person in your whole life - would it change anything?
     
  2. Rachel

    Rachel
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    Everyone I know could. I talk to people constantly about how Jesus loves them and wants a relationship with them. I have some evangelist in me I think and am always looking for opportunties to witness.

    Would it change anything if no one talked about how important Jesus was to me when I died? No it wouldn't, but it would make me very sad if I knew about it, which I wouldn't know because I would be in Heaven. [​IMG]


    Psalm 100
    A Psalm of praise.

    1 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.

    2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.

    3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

    4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.

    5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    TS,

    There will be only one witness that will matter on that day, and none of them were listed above in your post.

    As to whether I would be in Heaven after dying, I would say that this would depend a bit on your eschatological beliefs. If you are pre-mill, you would probably say no. If you were even a partial preterist, like me, then you would definitely say yes.

    Joseph Botwinick :D
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Where are you if you're pre-mill???
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If I understand their theology correct, you are still in the ground awaiting the rapture.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. TexasSky

    TexasSky
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    Joseph,

    I agree totally, the only one who matters isn't listed. People seem to forget that. They seem to say, "Since it isn't recorded in history, they can't be saved," but the only book that counts is the book of life.

    As to pre-mill vs post mill, I don't care. I really don't. The only thing that matters is the final day when Christ decides where our eternal home will be.
     
  7. webdog

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    No, our bodies are in the ground waiting for the rapture, we are with the Lord, which would be Heaven. Just because the "New Heaven" and "New Earth" are still to come, does not mean Heaven does not exist today. Where else would God be?
     
  8. Marcia

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    I don't think so! :eek: :eek:

    "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." Every funeral at my church (which is pre-mill) talks about the departed beleivers as being with Christ right now. What you suggest sounds like soul sleep, which is very aberrant and not pre-mill.

    Our bodies are in the ground; we are with Christ! [​IMG]
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Hey, my little "yikes" icons didn't show up!

    I'm trying them again. :eek: :eek:

    They go in the above post.
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Assume? No. Believe? Yes.

    Probably not. I tend to be rather private about my faith, at least verbally. My family, otoh, will vouch for my faith.

    Some, perhaps, some might not. If my faith wasn't important to them, they might not have noticed it. However, they probably noticed the fruits of my faith, which is more important than anything I might have said about my faith.

    I need no one to stand up and testify about my relationship with Christ. Faith isn't supposed to be a "prove it" sort of thing. Jesus says if I go into my room and pray in secret, my Heavenly Father will hear me. That's good enough for me.
    I would still believe I was going to be with the Lord when I die.
     
  11. TexasSky

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    Johnv,

    You misread one of the question. It was not "would you assume" it was "who would assume".

    I'm not asking "will you be in heaven."

    I'm asking - after you die - is there going to be any wordly historical evidence for the world that you were or were not a Christian?

    If not - how would you feel if you knew that someday people would be proclaiming to the world that you were not a Christian, or that they were saying your Christitan values should not be taught to others because there was "no proof" that you cared about Christian values?

    How would you feel that some how, some way the things you leave behind would be used either by Christians or by athiests, and yours would be used by athiests?
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv
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    I don't know. And it doesn't matter, really. We're not required as Christians to "leave wordly historical evidence" behind. If we do, great, if we don't, great.

    However, I think it's safe to say that there won't be much evidence left behind to suggest I was a non-Christian.

    I know you're subtly referring to Geo Washington. No here has said that Washington wasn't a Christian. They said that he might have been, but the evidence is lacking, so we can't say for sure. Likewise, with me, if there was little or no evidence for it, people 200 years from now might say I probably was a Christian, but the evidence is lacking, so they can't say for sure. That doesn't bother me a bit.
     
  13. TexasSky

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    Johnv,

    We'll be known by our fruits.

    I was not just referring to Washington, but yes, he is one of the one's that brought this up.

    George Washington attended a Christian church when he attended church. In fact, history records that he helped build that church. Nelly said that it was wrong to question his faith.

    Its clear from the writings that are not disputed, that he believed in "a supreme being". The disputed writings indicate a believe in Christ.

    Yet - people try desperately to say, "Don't call him a Christian!" And they use the same arguements that most athiests use.

    I want to know why Christians try so hard to point to men that for about 150 years, the world accepted as Christian witnesses and examples, and now go, "Don't! Better the world think he is secular."

    WHY is it better for the world to believe that great men did not love and respect Jesus Christ?
     
  14. Johnv

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    Yes, we will. But visibility of fruit, or the lack of fruit, does is not litmus for a determining a person's salvation. Saved people produce bad or no fruit all the time. Unsaved people often produce fruit that one would expect a saved person to produce.

    His church attendence and faithfulness in his younger years is not in dispute. Likewise, Peter Jennings' church attendence and faithfulness in his younger years is likewise not in dispute. Yet one is being called a Christian, another is not.

    As for Nelly's comments, she did not say it was wrong to question his faith. Look at the whole letter in its full context. She said that when she was young, it would never have occurred to her that his faith was even in question. It was only to his early years that she was attesting to. She as not attesting to his later years. It is accurate to say that, while Washington was probably a Christian, evidence to support that is lacking.

    There are no disputed writings. The "Washington prayer book" was not written by him. It's not in his handwriting, and not even his grammer and composition. That's a cold hard fact.

    Now, in his writings, there are only a few references to God. There is no doubt that he was a Deist. No one has questioned this. However, references to God in his writings are very few in comparison to the quantity of his writings.

    No one here has said this. You have put words in other peoples' mouths. What people have said is that, while it's a strong possibility that he was a man of Christian faith, the evidence for him being so is lacking.

    I wasn't aware that the world thought of him as a Christian for 150 years. If the definition of a Christian was a churchgoer, then sure, he fits. If, however, the definition is being born again, the evidence is lacking. Simply visit any thread about church attendence and affiliation on this site, and you'll find a lot of people that don't equate salvation with church attendance.
    No one here has said that. We've simply said that, while he might have been, the evidence is lacking.
     

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