If you do not believe in unconditional election...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Dec 23, 2002.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    then you do not understand how God can unconditionally love you either.

    Fundamental Baptists, it is time to put of the shackles of the sovereignty of man and embrace the supremacy of God in all things for the joy of all peoples.

    Where are you?
     
  2. Don

    Don
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    10,550
    Likes Received:
    212
    Confused?

    Sorry, but I'm not following your point. I know for a fact that I'm exactly where God wants me; is that what you're after?
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where do you stand on unconditional election?
     
  4. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not my fault I got saved?
     
  5. John3v36

    John3v36
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,146
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ezekiel 36
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
     
  6. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    From a Theological Perspective, God imparts Spiritual Life to us, who were dead in trespasses and sins, and the evidence that that has happened is our acceptance by faith of the free Gift of Eternal Life. Now this is all part of the same act, Salvation is a one time event. Not salvation, and than a later commitment of your life to Christ, thats just what Salvation is.

    If God has called you to be Saved, he has also called you to live a holy life, they are inseparable

    It is overwhelmingly clear in the whole of scripture that our salvation is not "our fault" but rather the work of God,

    Eph 2:8-9
    "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast"

    Eph 3:1
    "And you [hath he quickened] who were dead in your tresspasses and sins."

    I don't see any man work in those passages, nor in many others regarding our salvation
     
  7. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    PTW is this a Cal/Arm debate or am I misunderstanding you?
    Murph
     
  8. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you hit the button Murphy me bucko

    I believe in conditional election

    I believe in the ultimate weapon of God

    Love

    I believe - that every man, woman, and child on this planet is lower then scum - but God sent His Son to die for stuff that is lower then scum. I believe His love is so great that He loves all proto-scum as we are.

    I believe that God as my Father loves me and desire me to grow, and as such out of love demands that we make certain choices on our own; although He is willing to help

    I stand fast knowing God loves me
     
  9. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Taking a break here from cooking....

    To answer your question,I believe in election and the sovereignty of God in all things. I believe in chosen people and retrobation...I believe God has predestined us to become His children,our faith and obedience are in His control. I believe in the total depravity of my sinful nature and I know on my own I would not CHOOSE God. But,because of His grace,He has allowed me to know and love Him.
     
  10. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    I read in Romans 2 that it is the kindness of God that leads one to repentance, not the election of God ahead of time.

    I read in Romans 1 that the truth is available to all men, but that some choose to suppress it, thus earning God's wrath.

    I read in Matthew 7, that we can ask, and it will be given; that we can seek, and we will find; that we can knock, and the door will be opened. Jesus told us that Heavenly Father will give to those who ask Him.

    I read in Matthew 9 that Jesus came to call sinners. He does not say He came to call the elect. But sinners.

    I read in Matthew 11 that He calls all who are weary and heavy-laden. I do not read that He calls only the so-called 'elect.' Unless, of course, only the 'elect' are weary and heavy-laden!

    I read in Matthew 15 that He had compassion for all the people in the crowd that followed Him and had become hungry, not just for those He considered elect. All the people were therefore fed.

    I read in Matthew 23 that Jesus mourned over Jerusalem because they refused Him, but He wanted them.

    In John 3, I read that God loved the world, not just the elect. I read also that it is those who refuse to believe that are condemned for that reason, not because of their sins.

    I read in John 6 that whoever looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life.

    In short, I read over and over again that man has the freedom to respond to God with acceptance or refusal. I don't think I was any different. I wanted to know the truth. He showed me. I could then accept it or reject it. That part was up to me. In accepting it, I was led to Christ by the Father, and He accepted me.

    Do I understand unconditional love? Of course I don't! How could He love me? I have no idea. But I know He does; I experience it every day of my life and it leaves me in a state of renewed humbleness and awe. And all I can do is praise Him and love Him back, and obey Him. These things I cannot do without the indwelling Holy Spirit, which He gave me. But He did not give me anything without my being willing to accept it and to submit.

    It was a very mutual thing -- which also blows me away, since He could have done things any way He wanted. But He allowed me to respond freely to Him, and then took me from that point and carried me along.

    I am amazed. I am in awe. I am in love with God.
     
  11. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    And....that is all because of God and His character...He did it all for you and me. He loved us when we were His enemies,he died for us when we were sinners....but,He also chose us before the foundations of the world to be His. Amazing love.

    Praise God for His sovereignty over salvation,Helen! [​IMG]

    [ December 24, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
  12. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Molly, what was predestined was not that, but that those who believed would be transformed utterly into the image of the Son. That is what was predestined, in line with Philippians 1:6, that God would complete the good work He began. The message is that no believer will be left 'half-done.' That is the meaning of predestination, not that some were chosen before they were created.

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT. In love he predestined us TO BE ADOPTED AS HIS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST...
    (Eph. 1).

    What predestination involves is clearly stated, and to believe you had no choice is to invalidate an awfully significant part of the Bible!

    "Choose this day whom you will serve" has real meaning today, just as it did in the time of Moses and Joshua.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Notice how it is work that "God begun" not work that "you and him began." You so glibly pass over these things that contradict your position. How is that you, who hated God and were not searching for him (Rom 3:10-12), whose heart was more deceitful than you even know (jer 17:9), who were unable to please God (Rom 8) came to know him? You would attribute it to yourself. You said "I wanted to know him, to search for him." The Bible disagrees with you. The Bible says that salvation is all of God, not part of God and part of you. For you, the difference between the saved and the unsaved lies in the person and necessarily attributes some form of merit to the person. Scripture says that teh difference lies with God.

    You repeat the false notion taht unbelief is not sin. Scripture disagrees; you cannot have it both ways. Unbelief must be sin because it is disobedience to the command of God to believe. If Christ paid for all sin, then he paid for the sin of unbelief. If people are not sent to hell for their sin, then they cannot be sent to hell for their sin of unbelief. Your dichotomy is out of line with Scripture. People are clealry sent to hell for their sin (cf. Rev 20:11-15; 2 Thess 1:6-10; etc.)

    To say that we were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ is exactly what those verses say. How do people get conformed to his image?? By getting saved. You have made a distinction, not from the text, but from your own theology.

    Unconditional election does not presuppose that man has no choice. It understands that man's choice will always be made in accordance with his nature, just as God's will be. Why is God unable to do evil? Because his nature is holy and righteous. Why is unsaved man unable to choose God? Because his nature is depraved so that he will not choose God (Rom 3).

    He is called to choose whom he will serve. He will always choose to serve himself because of his nature. He is prevented from serving God only because of his own choices. God is not keeping him away.

    [ December 24, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  14. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I read in Romans 2 that it is the kindness of God that leads one to repentance, not the election of God ahead of time."

    It si the kindness of God that causes him to elecxt some to salvation.

    "I read in Romans 1 that the truth is available to all men, but that some choose to suppress it, thus earning God's wrath."

    No, you read that ALL supporess it. All people are without excuse.

    "I read in Matthew 7, that we can ask, and it will be given; that we can seek, and we will find; that we can knock, and the door will be opened. Jesus told us that Heavenly Father will give to those who ask Him."

    Not a problem fopr a Calvanist. He elcts those who will ask. Those not elect will not ask.

    "I read in Matthew 9 that Jesus came to call sinners. He does not say He came to call the elect. But sinners."

    Yes he makes a general call. But only the elct will answer correctly. Again, not a problem for Calvanists.

    " read in Matthew 11 that He calls all who are weary and heavy-laden. I do not read that He calls only the so-called 'elect.' Unless, of course, only the 'elect' are weary and heavy-laden!"

    Again, general call. Still no problem for Calvanists.

    "I read in Matthew 15 that He had compassion for all the people in the crowd that followed Him and had become hungry, not just for those He considered elect. All the people were therefore fed."

    Since feeding people bread is nt the same as offering salvation I fail to see the relevance for elction.

    "I read in Matthew 23 that Jesus mourned over Jerusalem because they refused Him, but He wanted them."

    Of course. Just becuase God allows people to die in their sins does not mean it is a matter of indiffernce for Him. This is no problem for Calvanists.

    "n John 3, I read that God loved the world, not just the elect. I read also that it is those who refuse to believe that are condemned for that reason, not because of their sins."

    It is the Sprirt who goes where He wills in John 3, nt where we will. And those who do not believe are condemned ALREADY. And we know that it si all those who are not called who will refuse to believe. That's because of depravity. This is not aproblem for Cavanists, since we take the whole counsel of Sceriture into account.

    "I read in John 6 that whoever looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life."

    Of course this is true. Calvanists believe it. But we also know that those not called specifically by Goid will not believe. For those enslaved to sin this isn't possible. You can't simply will yourself to freedom from sin, since your will in this respect, is not free.

    I see that you read the Bible, but I don't see that you inderstand it, certainly you do not understand Calvanism. If you did, even if you continued in disagreement) you would not speak thus.
     

Share This Page

Loading...