IF You Hold Gospel is To ALL men: Interprete John 8:42-47!

I made the comment that the word if doesn't always mean if, but sometimes since. Where did I say specifically in this passage it is not "if?" I didn't. That's why I shared the word "ei" not "ean."

Also, the word if is not in the NASB here at this verse. It is better interpreted "unless." It then doesn't mean if. It is better rendered unless.

Sometimes "if" in context can mean "since" which is synonyous and more popularly used than "forasmuch."

So you're saying this word if here proves free will? Is that your argument?

 

Exactly what doctrine have I tried to establish off of this? I made a point, you assumed, and have been fighting the wrong argument ever since. Just goes to show again you really don't pay attention to what is said and go on an assumptive rant.

 

What doctrine?

:BangHead::tonofbricks::BangHead:

 

I've not attempted to establish any doctrine off of anything here.

I made a passing comment, he's been on a rampage ever since.

 

Give me a break, you tried to redefine "if" in Jn 8:24 to support Total Inability when in fact it refutes it. Jesus did not say their fate was fixed in stone, he said, "for IF ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." The word "if" shows they could believe.

There is no IF in Calvinism concerning salvation, a person who is elect will irresistably believe and be saved, an unelect person cannot possibly believe and be saved.

You KNOW all of this.

 

No break given.

I never attempted to establish any doctrine off of this verse.

I made a passing statement that "if" sometimes means "since."

Then you went on your rant of hatred for calvinist brethren.

Like I said, and it stands, and is proven here, you think someone said thus and so, and go on a rant not even close to what one meant. I think your anger blinds your eyes and your fingers start typing before you actually comprehend. You've said you're an angry person, I've seen this myself. Calm down a lot, OK?

Now get to proving the word if here means and proves free-will.

- Peace

 

The ESV translates it "for unless you believe". But either way I do not see the context supporting either argument you two are making. It neither supports or refutes Calvinism or anything else. This argument you two are having is not even in view. It simply states the qualification is belief. But it does not say or even imply that belief is imposed or not imposed.

 

What argument am I making this verse support? None. I made a passing comment that sometimes if can mean since.

Pay attention. Nothing I've stated was to support any theology. Go show me which argument I am allegedly supporting. You can't.

 

OK you did not make an argument. God Bless

 

That's incorrect. The word "unless" implies the matter is questionable.

If Calvinism is true, there is no question as to whether a person will believe or not. The elect will irresistably believe, the unelect cannot possibly believe, a person's fate is sealed in stone by God himself.

And if anyone would know this, Jesus would know this better than anybody. There is no room for questionable words like IF in Calvinism concerning salvation.

Words have meaning. "If" means there is option, so does "unless" or "except".

 

And people wonder why I won't debate you anymore of the subject of Calvinism. If you believe, you will be saved. That is very consistent with Calvinism. With God, there are no "ifs" because he is all knowing(well, the Bible teaches that anyway). Another classic example of a failed attempt to discredit Calvinism. (the irony is that the argument is just as valid the other way around unless you don't believe God knows who will be saved and who won't.)

 

Jesus did not use the word "if". That is how it is translated and it is translated differently in other versions. The word Jesus used is:

eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.


The condition of uncertainty here can also refer to the fact that not everyone always believes. It does not have to point to a condition of free will. That is to read into scripture what is not certain.

 

I won't lose sleep IF you choose not to debate me.

But that's the point, you have the option or possibility of debating me or not. That's what the word if means. A few examples;

I often travel south to see my Mom. I will call her as I travel and say, "Mom, IF all goes well, I will be there by six." Why do I say "if"? Because I might get stuck in heavy traffic and be delayed.

Or, I might call home and say, "I will be home at 3 "unless" they ask me to work overtime."

And "except" means the same as "unless" although it is an older term not used as much today as in the past.

But all of these words, if, unless, and except show something is questionable, that options are available and possible, it is not an absolute certainty. I might get caught in traffic and not arrive at my Mom's house till seven, or I might be asked to work over and not get home till five.

And you might debate me, or possibly you won't, that is why I said I won't lose sleep IF you decide not to debate me.

What is truly pathetic is all of you know what IF means, yet you try to redefine it.

 

What did Jesus apply this word to? He applied it to "believeing". You are correct, there was uncertainty, they might believe not, or they might believe.

If Calvinism were true, Jesus would have known for an absolute certainty they could not possibly believe and would not have applied either "if" or "unless" to it.

You guys would argue with a brick wall, doesn't make you right. Believe what you want to believe.

 

p4t, You quoted Winman's comments specifically dealing with John 8:24 when you in replied with your take on the word "if." You even commented on the verse using "since" rather than "if."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1705732&postcount=13

Hence, the trouble you later found yourself in when Winman posted the definition of the word.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1706226&postcount=51


Blessings

 

Yep, they aren't fooling anybody except perhaps themselves, and I don't believe that.

Calvinism cannot find support in scripture. This is why Calvinists must constantly redefine words. Non-Cals do not have to do this, the natural understanding of scripture supports it.

 

Proper translation allows us to 'know' what the context is. Context DOES NOT afford your rendition and is why no other Greek scholars agree with you, whether Calvinist or Non-Cals

 

The plain truth is easy to be found. :thumbs:

 

Wrong again as you miss my entire point and still continue on the wrong track and subject that I've addressed. 1) "If" here doesn't prove man has free-will as Winman proclaims. 2) Sometimes "if" doesn't mean if, as to call into question, as used in Colossians 3:1 where it can be rendered "forasmuch" or "since". 3) The word can be better translated "unless" in John 8:24. 4) Scholarship does support this especially in Colossians 3:1 as some render if "since." 5) Some versions rightly use "since" in Col. 3:1. 6) "Unless" is used in some versions in John 8:24.

I never said that John 8:24 should be the word since. You're on this track to prove scholarship in John 8:24 doesn't support something I've never said, that you misunderstand. Also, the context doesn't support it to be "since" and this is what you think I am saying. I simply was making a point that it isn't always what it seems. It definitely doesn't prove man has free-will.

 

Did you note my word "perhaps" there to draw out further thought against this proving "free-will" as an objective? I believe here "ean" is better translated "unless" and often times where we see "if" used in Scriptures it can be better rendered.

You miss my point. By the way the word "if" doesn't prove free-will, and perhaps "unless" they believe, they are not His Sheep. In other words not believing proves one not to be of His fold.

- Peace