If you were an "Arminian" Baptist.....

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Michael Wrenn, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    You didn't believe in any of the 5 points of Calvinism, but there were no Free Will or General Baptist churches near you, would you go to an SBC church, or other Baptist church, or would you seek out some kind of Wesleyan/Methodist/Holiness church?

    (Thought I'd post this here because it's kind of about Baptists and other denominations.)
     
  2. drfuss

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    Yes. In fact I do not believe in the doctrne of eternal security and go to a SBC church. To me it is not an issue because the difference between my Arminian theology and the doctrine of eternal security as believed in my SBC church, is only a matter of definitions and terminology.

    I started attending my SBC church because they had a good worship service while my other church went to the loud, beat driven, contemporary music.
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    A couple of questions: Could you explain what you mean in the part of your post above that I have put in bold? What do you believe, and what do they believe?

    Could you ever see yourself in a Wesleyan church? Why or why not?

    Thanks for your reply!
     
  4. 12strings

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    I think many people in the situation you are describing can, and in fact, HAVE found good church homes in SBC churches...because even though the BFM declares a belief in Eternal security, and that means that most Seminary-trained SBC pastors also agree with it...within the actual membership you will most likely find a wide range of beliefs about it.

    My (SBC) church's middle-adult sunday school class recently had a lesson devoted to this issue, and we had a good discussion with opinions on all sides. We are able to continue to get along because, we look at it like this: If there is a person who used to attend church, but has rejected God, we agree that they need the Gospel now...whether they used to be saved and gave it up, or they were never truly saved.

    (Of course, my church has 4 Calvinist or Calvinistic Pastors, so in a church with non-cal leadership, I assume you would be able to find one with even more openness to different views on this issue...but you should probably ask around...There are some non-calvinistic Baptist churches that tenasiously insist on a (I believe) extreme belief in OSAS, mostly so they hold onto hope for all their children and grandchildren prayed the sinners prayer at age 5 and are now grown, gone, and have no interest in God. To those people, questioning OSAS would be seen as a personal attack on their family members.)

    I used to know a godly Wesleyan pastor, but I haven't learned enough about their church to know if they baptize infants or not. I think methodists do, which is where wesleyans came from. If so, that might be a difference that baptists might not be comfortable with.

    P.S. This Easter, we're going to have a "Good worship service" and sing a "loud, beat-driven, contemporary" arrangement of CROWN HIM WITH MANY CROWNS.:smilewinkgrin:
     
    #4 12strings, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2012
  5. drfuss

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    The part you put in bold is: because the difference between my Arminian theology and the doctrine of eternal security as believed in my SBC church, is only a matter of definitions and terminology.

    From Charles Stanley's example on his webstite years ago, consider a person who accepts Christ as Savior and Lord and serves the Lord for two years. After the two years, he is converted to the Muslim religion and remains a Muslim the rest of his life and dies a Muslim.

    Most Doctrine Of Eternal Security (DOES) Christians believe that the person was never really a True Christian for those two years because a True Christian would not stop believing.
    The Classic Arminians believe that person was a True Christion, but forfeited his salvation when he decided to stop believing in Christ.
    In both beliefs, the man died a Muslim and therefore will not go to heaven. The difference is how the two beliefs describe the person who was a Christian (or said he was a Christian) for two years and then stopped believing. The two describe the man differently, but the result is the same, i.e. the difference is in terminology and definitions. Christians in both beliefs are equally sure of their salvation.

    DOES Christians ask Arminians how they are sure that they will not stop trusting Christ in a years or two and forfeit their salvation. The answer is: I have accepted Christ as my Savior and Lord, and trust in His saving and Keeping power.

    Arminians Christian ask DOES Christians how they know that they will not stop trusting Christ in a year or two, and are therefore not a True Christian now, but just think they are. The answer is: I have accepted Christ as my Savior and Lord, and trust in His saving and Keeping power.

    The answer is the same and the assurance is the same.

    Over the years, many DOES believers have been mislead about what Arminians believe, both by DOES ministers and DOES written matterial. You don't have to depend on these potentially misleading sources anymore. With the Internet, just go to the denomination's Webpage and and check it out for yourself.

    The pastor of my SBC church believes that a True Christain will not stop trusting Christ which is what most DOES Christians believe.

    My belief is close to the Classic Arminian belief which says a true Christain that stops believing has forfeited (not lost) his salvation by making a decision to stop believing.

    The Wesleyan Arminians believe a True Christian can also lose his salvation while still believing by long term resistance to the conviction of the Holy Spirit's by refusing to repent and be remorseful for known sins.

    There are others (such as fringe Holiness Churches) who believe that a Christian cannot be sure of his salvation. Many DOES Christians group these with the Arminians and assume the Classic Arminians and Wesleyan Arminians also believe that a Chrsitian cannot be sure of his salvation. Arminian Christians are just as sure of their salvation as DOES Christians.
     
    #5 drfuss, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2012
  6. drfuss

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    "Could you ever see yourself in a Wesleyan church? Why or why not?"

    I have never been to a Wesleyan Denominational Church.

    If your question is a church with Wesleyan Arminian beliefs, I would probably have no real problems, since the actual differences in beliefs are primarily in terminology and definitions. I would just have to keep in mind where they are coming from. I would probably have problems in a fringe Holiness church which may believe that a Christian cannot be sure of their salvation.
     
  7. billwald

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    >Most Doctrine Of Eternal Security (DOES) Christians believe that the person was never really a True Christian for those two years because a True Christian would not stop believing.

    I don't buy this argument. Why? First, because maybe the person had a mini-stroke which caused brain damage - or some other logical reason.

    Second, because then the person can defeat God.

    Third, because if the primary intention of God in creating was to populate Heaven with humans and if the vast majority of humans end up in hell then the best we can say about God is he did something wrong. If a vast majority of a company's production was scrap they would shut down.
     
  8. Michael Wrenn

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    Thank you for your detailed and informative post.

    I have a problem with infant baptism and United Methodist polity, so I don't think I would fit there. Church of the Nazarene and Congregational Methodist Church, while allowing for infant baptism, much prefer believer's baptism and say that infant baptism is not a substitute for believer's baptism. They also have dedication of infants and even view infant baptism as more of a dedication. I could probably fit in either of these two denominations except for one thing -- their belief in entire sanctification. Although viewed as anything from entire consecration all the way to perfection, I still would have a problem with it viewed as a second definite work of grace subsequent to conversion, as I see sanctification as progressive and not finished in this life.

    Here is a document detailing the different views of entire sanctification in the Holiness churches:

    http://cbounds.blogspot.com/2006/05/what-is-entire-sanctification.html
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    Thank you for your explanation. I understand what you are saying now.
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: In my lifetime I have attended numerous Holiness churches and never found one of them that did not believe that they could not be certain of their salvation. You simply are confused as to the teachings of Holiness Churches.
     
  11. DHK

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    I don't believe any of the five points of Calvinism.
    I am not an Arminian.
    I go to a non-Cal, non-Arm, Baptist church that preaches the Bible.
     
  12. annsni

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    Hey!! We did the same!! We had a family from the home church come and lead the worship music today - mom sings, dad plays electric guitar and sings, older son (15) plays bass and sings and younger son (13) plays drums. It was AWESOME!!!!!!!
     
  13. annsni

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    Can you explain this? I don't follow...

    Is there a verse that says that God's primary intention in creating humans was to populate heaven?
     
  14. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    What is your position on OSAS? If you have posted it before and I missed it, I'm sorry.
     
  15. Michael Wrenn

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    I think I'm down to a couple of SBC churches or a Church of the Nazarene as to where I'm going to join. I could go to all three, but I don't want to be a denominational polygamist. :) Just as I believe in having one wife, I also believe in having one church. :)

    Of course, I'll still visit other churches from time to time.
     
  16. drfuss

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    You are probably right. I have never regularily attended a Holiness church. My assumption was based on the Pentecostal Holiness Denomination that believes in the second work of grace and that a Christian can be sanctified enough to live a sinless life (From their expanded website). IMHO, they put too much emphasis on sanctification.

    Also I have heard Charles Stanley claim that if your don't believe in eternal security, you don't know for certain that you are saved. Charles Stanley was saved in a Pentecostal Holiness Church, and I assumed that his previous church is where he got the idea that those who do not believe in eternal security, cannot know that they are saved for sure.

    It appears that I may have mistakenly made the same type of wrong assumption that eternal security believers sometimes make about Arminians.

    Thanks for the information.
     
    #16 drfuss, Apr 8, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2012
  17. DHK

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    I believe in the eternal security of the believer.
    But the P in TULIP is Perseverance of the saints. I don't necessarily believe in that. It has been defined differently by different people of the Reformed faith, which I don't want to get into.

    But no one can dispute "eternal security," or even, as you say, OSAS.
     
  18. Michael Wrenn

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    Actually, it can be disputed, but let's not revive that here. :)
     
  19. Michael Wrenn

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    Instead of starting a new thread, I'll just talk about the following in this one:

    I have spoken with a couple of Nazarene pastors last week, and both of them defined entire sanctification as complete and total dedication and consecration -- a total surrendering of your will and everything you are to Jesus. I asked one of them didn't that happen at the point of accepting Jesus; he said it could for some, more probably for those who had been raised in the church, but not for most. So, this view still believes that this total surrender and dedication/consecration of self comes subsequent to regeneration and happens in a moment, often as a "crisis experience".

    Opinions/thoughts?

    I'll appreciate any and all replies.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:......
     

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