If your faith is a work then what?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Aug 13, 2009.

  1. Benefactor

    Benefactor
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    If faith is a work then faith is always a work.
    If man created in God’s image has the capacity to believe
    Or
    If man created in God’s image does not have the capacity to believe but is regenerated and given faith as a gift what difference is there once man has the capacity to believe?

    Let us say that the view that God gives a gift of faith to man before or after he is regenerated. Is not a gift that is received a possession of the receiver? If man’s faith is a work when he exercises it then it stands to reason that regardless of any other reason or circumstance that to believe is to work. If we say believing is work then when does believing not become work?
     
    #1 Benefactor, Aug 13, 2009
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  2. Darrenss1

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    What I want to know is IF man in the NT has to be regenerated in order to "believe" and follow Christ (therefore being saved) where does that leave those in the OT whom believed God and followed God? Abraham, Noah, Job, David, Jacob (to name a few), and those whom were commanded to repent (Nineveh) and did repent, those whom were believing but rebelled for example Solomon or even Korah; Is there a doctrine to prove those OT saints had to be regenerated in order to believe or "respond" to God; or did they believe because they "could" respond when God intervened, warned them, through the prophets, the law, the testimony of the saints..etc Howbeit they were NOT regenerated yet they could and did respond to God.

    IF no doctrine can be produced then it stands to reason that the NT regeneration to believe is not a necessary inference since man always had the ability and capacity to follow God, ONCE God intervened and revealed Himself, howbeit, they were not regenerated but still were able to respond to God nevertheless.

    Darren
     
  3. Winman

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    Good argument Benefactor :thumbsup:

    Believeing is not a work, the scriptures contrast the two.

    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    And Darren, I know I have said this a hundred times, but faith comes by hearing the word of God. Those in the OT believed God's word through his prophets.

    Jonah 3:1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
    2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
    3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
    4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
    5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
     
    #3 Winman, Aug 13, 2009
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  4. Dale-c

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    Lets see. I did not copy that from the Baptist Board. Anyone care to guess where I DID copy it from?
    :)
     
  5. Darrenss1

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    Exactly!! There was/is no 3 step program. God spoke to man, man can either repent or rebel, regeneration had nothing to do with the issue in hand, OT or NT. Bottom line.... Until someone proves that OT saints were regenerated before they believed then they have no case to make for the NT. Sinners are sinners, unless God intervenes they will remain that way but when God intervenes, through His Word they need only to respond by faith.

    Darren
     
  6. Benefactor

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    I am on your side if you believe that faith is first and salvation is second. Regeneration comes after faith, not before. I do not believe anyone is regenerated first and that faith comes later. No what I believe is what Paul states in Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Salvation is the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit Titus 3. Because regeneration is salvation then according to Paul who wrote Titus too the order of salvation is (1) faith (2) repent (3) confess (4) resulting in salvation. I side with the Scripture.

    The Bible - Nothing less, Nothing else, Nothing more
     
    #6 Benefactor, Aug 14, 2009
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  7. Benefactor

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    Thanks, The Calvinist will not address the issue of faith in this context. When they are pressed to explain "saving faith" it eludes them. If we give them their argument that faith is after regeneration and once God gives them this faith then what kind of faith is it? They say it is the same faith as mentioned in Eph. 2:8 and 9. And that faith is saving faith. So if in their view God gives them a special gift of faith as they claim Eph. 2:8 and 9 teaches then is it their faith after it is given to them? Also, now that they have this gift of faith what do they do with it? According to Eph 2:8 and 9 the one who received the gift of faith according to their view believes; If then the person is doing the believing now that they have the gift of faith it then to is a work, because if a person does the believing according to the Calvinist view as it is taught today then the faith they receive and now have and now use become a work. They too then are teaching a salvation of works because they say to believe personally after they have the gift is an act of the will and is of self.
     
  8. The Archangel

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    Benefactor, et al.

    First off, this will be a drive-by posting. Perhaps, if time permits, I may address this more in detail at a later time.

    The passage of Jonah clearly states the people repented. We are not told anything else other than that. The context suggests that Jonah's preaching had wrought God's desired purpose.

    Even Calvinists believe that Faith comes by hearing, because it is biblical. Preaching is God's ordained means of converting people. In other words, The Spirit uses what is preached to generate Faith--assuming the person has been given ears to hear and eyes to see (that's regeneration).

    Remember though...faith comes by/through hearing. Hearing is not faith itself.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  9. Benefactor

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    Hi Dale, to easy everyone concern it is on 4 boards and I put it there. Is there a problem?
     
  10. Lux et veritas

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    I'm not Dale, but I'd like to answer anyway. Yes. But the problem is not with the actual posting, but you. This 4-time repeated post reveals a problem with your heart.

    And ... I'm still waiting to see your response to Archangel in his answer (post #17 on your thread: Acts 2:48 Appointed or Disposed) to your Greek misinformation. You have conveniently ignored a very able reply to your argument, which is unbecoming a Christian, but especially one who wishes to be recognized as an authority on a major theological issue.

    Until you answer Archangel, you really have no credibility on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.
     
  11. Benefactor

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    w=omega

    I have added a word for word translation for the viewers that are not familiar with Greek
    8. te gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pistews kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron
    9. ouk ex ergwn ina me tis kauchshtai


    The te
    for gar

    Noun, dative case, feminine in gender, singular in numberby grace cariti




    you (plural) are este


    a verbal/adjective - a participle in the perfect tense, passive voice, nominative case, masculine gender, second person, plural in number - having been saved seswsmenoi




    through dia

    Noun, genitive case, feminine gender, singular in number - faith pistews

    and kai

    near demonstrtive pronoun, nominative case, neuter in gender, singular in number - this touto

    not ouk
    out of ex
    you umwn
    God qeouthe
    the to
    gift dwron
    not ouk

    out of ex
    works ergwn
    in order that ina
    not me
    anyone tis
    should bost kauchshtai

    For those who do not know the Greek. You will read in various post about the antecedent of the “near demonstrative pronoun translated “this”; as you can locate it in the text above.

    Notice three things: one is the gender is in brown and the case in read and number is green

    Grace is (1) Dative in case and (2) feminine is gender and (3) singular in number
    Having been saved is (1) Nominative in case and (2) masculine in gender and (3) plural in number
    Faith is (1) Genitive in case and (2) feminine in gender and (3) singular in number

    This is (1) Nominative in case and (2) neuter in gender and (3) singular in number

    Basically a neuter gender can either agree with feminine or masculine words but generally when a pronoun is related to a specific word it takes on the same gender. In this case the writer did not identify “this” by gender and put it in the neuter. Hold on to that thought.

    Now let’s compare and contrast using the case, gender and number:

    First the case: Grace, faith and this are all in different cases, Grace is dative, faith is genitive and this is nominative, and having been saved is nominative. What agreement do we have in the case of the words; this and having been saved agree in case only.

    Second, we compared gender. Both grace and faith are feminine, and “this” is neuter and “having been saved” is masculine. In comparing gender with gender this is not a normal situation. We are left with trying to understand what the antecedent is of “this”. If it had been feminine that would clearly solve only half of the problem theologians have with this verse because the cases do not match, except with the the participle.

    Third, we compared number. Grace, faith, and "this" are singular and “having been saved is plural” so this agrees in number with grace and faith but not with “having been saved”. “Having been saved agrees with the word that comes before it which is “are” but is translated “you are” this state of being verb as we would call it takes on the identity of the participle is verbal and adjectival in function and we know this because of the way it is spelled. That is the nature of the beast.

    Forth, the strongest argument I have read that I agree with is that the antecedent of “this” is not “faith” but the complete statement, “for by grace you are saved through faith” is the antecedent.

    Remember the near demonstrative pronoun should agree with its antecedent but it does not because it does not exist in order for it to agree. What is the nearest likely antecedent in the sentence? It is “faith” Let's compare “this” with “faith”

    This is nominative neuter singular and faith is dative feminine singular. These two do not agree in case and gender but do in number. Remember that “this” agrees with “having been saved in case only” This is a problem that is not common. Paul wrote a lot of scripture and here he comes up with this odd ball statement that does not work as normal. Normal is not kind to these words. Because of all the differences the best and most likely solution is that “this” points to the complete statement, “for by grace you are saved by faith”. Now this does not diminish the Calvinist view or the Arminian view and it does not exclusively and definitively prove either as well.

    Calvinist holds that believing faith is a special gift form God at or after salvation this is in constant flux with the broad Calvinist camp. Now, with those of us that are not Calvinist we simple believe that faith precedes salvation / regeneration a no brainer so to speak. Both sides can stay in tack with this understanding but can not force it into their theology specifically as a proof text. Now, just because I make this statement does not mean both side will not continue to use these verse as a proof text but I would not and I would not advise it. If this one verse is all we or they have to rest on then the theology we hold is weak and basically with out merit on this statement alone. Always consider this in a debate or forum discussion.

    The emphasis on faith as a gift is a mute one too in the broad sense of the word. The ACRT believers hold that "faith" is a special gift given at regeneration or after and those of us that are not like them hold that faith comes before and is not an infused special gift at the prior to believing. No, most of us that are not ACRT hold that faith is a capacity that we have because we are created in the image of God. For those of us that hold the image of God view should acknowledge that in this respect faith is a gift but not an on the spot infuse gift as the ACRT do.

    Practically and technically this issue of faith being as special gift for the ACRT is a mute one if it hinges is support from this verse. There are no clear passages that support the view that faith is a special gift, but many that directly state that all forms of faith are of the individual. Faith to believe in Buda comes from the teaching of Buda, faith to believe in any religion or its leader comes from their writing and claims and so it is that faith comes from hearing the word of God for in it is the message that give faith an object to trust in, that being our Lord Jesus Christ and the message of salvation.
    Benefactor
     
  12. Benefactor

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    Agree that faith comes from haring but not a special infused gift. Faith is knowledge based I do agree because faith requires an object, data, thing, person, concept etc. Followers of Buda have faith in him as do all religions and there founders and writings. Ours is no different in that respect .

    I can indorse this statement because it is milder than the run of the mile Calvinistic statement on the generation of faith. However, if this statement intends to mean that God infuses a gift of faith then I would reject it. The role of the Holy Spirit as I see it is conviction and enlightenment expressed in terms as "opening our eyes" which I see as totally different form regeneration which is new birth.

    Agree hearing is not faith. Statements like “increase our faith” to me is not saying that God slices of a piece of faith and infuses it in to the mind of the person requesting it, nore does the statement "measure of faith" mean to me that God dips a measuring cup into a vat of faith and measures it out to individuals. What it does mean to me is that where God increases faith or measures out faith has to do with his absolute knowledge of that person's make up and bent and talents are and works in that person's life to mature them. A mature Christian has more faith that an immature one. God knows who we are and our potential for service in His kingdom. When a person constantly needs to go to the altar because of who knows what in their life this person is lacking in faith and it could be for a number of reasons, sin, personality, background circumstances that take time to grow out of etc. You have no doubt seen believers that you do not question their salvation but this one lacks faith compared to the other. Is this an infused portion of faith or has it more to do with the make up of the personality? One's reliance on God equals the amount of faith they have. The less we depend on God the less faith we have. Believing faith is that measure of faith that is necessary for God recognize as sufficient for salvation. How do you measure faith? Only God can do that we are only fruit inspectors, and bad ones at that.

    Consider the statement Jesus made “if you had faith the size of a mustard seed”: This statement recognizes the view I hold so when any statement is made were faith is measured etc it relates to the person and his or her make up as a unique person. This is seen in Thomas, Peter who doubted but others did not. Paul was strong in faith, Peter lacked faith because he drew back under the pressure of the Jews concerning circumcision. If I want to feed my faith so to speak or grow my faith I must willfully obey and do what God’s word tells me and as I do and live it out in my life my faith will grow, not because it is a miracle zapped into my soul because I labored in some kind of phony agony at an alter but because I determined in my heart to live for God. Mature faith prays the scripture for the will of God which is found in the scripture and the areas of the will of God that are not in Scripture such as where to live, go to school are all dependent on following the revealed will of God. If we are not following the revealed will then we will not follow the will that is not codified. When we do this our faith grows, is strengthened and our measure of fait is increased not from God dipping to a vat of faith and forcing it into our soul,we are responsible for our faith.

    Where we differ in this respect is that "opening the eyes of the lost to you is "regeneration" but for me it is hearing the word and the Holy Spirit conviction the heart of the truth that was heard, not rebirth of the soul.
     
    #12 Benefactor, Aug 15, 2009
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  13. Benefactor

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    You need an attitude adjustment. Try going back to bed and getting up on the right side that might help. Your belittling remarks only set you apart as a jerk. I am sure you will be able to teach or preach a wonderful message with your "better than thou remarks." If you are of the ability then you need to address a topic yourself. Regardless of your ability your approach is wanting and that takes away from your credibility. You may want to try a gentler and kinder approach and do your own work, don’t rely on others to do it for you.
     
    #13 Benefactor, Aug 15, 2009
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  14. Benefactor

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  15. Rippon

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    After regeneration;not salvation.

    WOW! After centuries of scholarly (and not so scholarly) debate on this issue it is so generous of you that just becuse you made this statement both sides will not have to obey your dictum.

    Well it's not.

    Acts 18:27 b: "When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed." Because of the grace that was given to them they believed.

    Philippians 1:29 : 'For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." You see, it has been granted to you to believe on him. There is no indication of a desire on the part of the recipients for grace. It was simply bestowed.

    2 Peter 1:1 :"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those ho through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours." They received that faith. Faith was a bestowal.

    A capacity which people with natural inability possess?! Some of you non-Cals also believe that an inability to believe is a God-given gift.

    I believe that all are created in the image of God. However, I don't agree with your theory that any have this special capacity because we are made in His image.

    You're confusing. On the one hand you acknowledge that faith is a gift. But you say that faith is not an on-the-spot bestowal. What do you think -- is it a piecemeal process?!

    And I have shown you otherwise.

    What verse support your claim that all forms of faith reside in the individual?

    "All forms of faith"?! I thought we were speaking specifically of the gift of saving faith.

     
  16. Winman

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    Yes, I agree with you here. I do believe that the Holy Spirit calls and influences the unsaved man from the outside, but that a person is not regenerated or born again until the Holy Spirit enters the man.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    So the scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit must dwell in a man to be saved.

    The scriptures teach that a man does not receive the spirit until after he believes.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    Men can resist the calling or drawing of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    2 Chron 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.
    9 For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.

    This verse clearly shows that the unsaved can yield themselves unto the Lord, and that they can turn again to the Lord if they choose. It also shows that God has not determined that any should perish, and that God will be merciful unto any that return unto him.

    Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    This shows it is not a matter if a man is able to hear the Lord, it is a matter of the will and if a man is willing to hear the Lord. And it shows that men harden their own hearts.
     
  17. Rippon

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    Ours is substantially different.

    No, the eye-opening is describing the same thing. Take a look at 2 Corinthians 4:6 for instance: For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
     
  18. Rippon

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    Yes, you should, in light of your former remarks.
     
  19. Winman

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    You left out much of the passage.

    2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


    Verse 4 shows that Satan hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

    Now, I don't know if I can make you understand, but God gives every man what he wants, even the unsaved. Because they do not want to know God, because they do not want to understand the truth, God gives them exactly that. He allows Satan to deceive and blind them. But it is because they loved sin to begin with.


    An example of this is king Ahab in 1 Kings. Ahab wanted to go to war against the king of Syria. He called Jehoshaphat king of Judah to join him.

    1 Kings 22:4 And he said unto Jehoshaphat, Wilt thou go with me to battle to Ramothgilead? And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, I am as thou art, my people as thy people, my horses as thy horses.

    Jehoshaphat wanted to enquire of the prophets before undertaking this battle.

    1 Kings 22:5 And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Inquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.

    Ahab brought 400 prophets who all prophesied that Ahab would be successful.

    1 Kings 22:6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.

    Jehoshaphat apparently did not believe these prophets, for he asked if there could be found a prophet of the Lord.

    1 Kings 22:7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?

    Ahab answered yes, there was one named Micaiah, but he hated this prophet, because he always prophesied against him.

    1 Kings 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.
    9 Then the king of Israel called an officer, and said, Hasten hither Micaiah the son of Imlah.


    In the meanwhile, the false prophets continued to prophesy success.

    1 Kings 22:10 And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah sat each on his throne, having put on their robes, in a void place in the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them.
    11 And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them.
    12 And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramothgilead, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the king's hand.


    The messenger who went to call Micaiah tried to convince him to give the same prophesy as the false prophets. Micaiah said he would only say what the Lord told him.

    1 Kings 22:13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good.
    14 And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak.


    Now here is where it gets real interesting. Micaiah also prophesied that Ahab would be successful. And Ahab did not believe him!

    1 Kings 22:15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
    16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?


    I think deep in his heart Ahab knew his 400 prophets were false, chosen simply because they told Ahab what he wanted to hear, not the truth. So, he did not believe when Micaiah agreed with the false prophets and asked for the truth. Now Micaiah reveals that God had sent a lying spirit to lie through Ahab's false prophets.

    1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
    18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
    19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
    20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
    21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
    22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
    23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


    Because Ahab was not sincerely interested in God's word and hated God's true prophet Micaiah, God sent a lying spirit to Ahab's false prophets to tell Ahab what he wanted to hear. When Micaiah told the truth, Ahab had Micaiah imprisoned.

    1 Kings 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
    25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
    26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
    27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace
    .

    Ahab said to imprison Micaiah until he returned in peace. But Micaiah said that if Ahab returned, then the Lord had not spoken by him.

    1 Kings 22:28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.
    29 So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
    30 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise myself, and enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes. And the king of Israel disguised himself, and went into the battle.
    31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.
    32 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, Surely it is the king of Israel. And they turned aside to fight against him: and Jehoshaphat cried out.
    33 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him. 34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
    35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.


    So, you can see that Ahab ignored Micaiah when Micaiah told him the truth. Ahab preferred to believe a lie, so God allowed a lying spirit to prophesy by his false prophets that he would succeed. And so Ahab was killed in battle.

    God does not cause a man to sin. But because men do not love the truth and love sin, God will allow them to be deceived.

    2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
    because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
    #19 Winman, Aug 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2009
  20. Havensdad

    Havensdad
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    "Ergon" (the Greek word for "work") means ANYTHING that you do. If you pick up a rock. If you choose one thing over another. If you pick your nose. Anything, that is not done TO you, but something done BY you, IS an "ergon".

    So if faith is a choice you make, rather than something given to you, it IS INDEED a work.

    Thankfully, scripture is clear:

    Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


    Notice we are to THINK according to the faith that God has ASSIGNED to us.
    We are assigned, by God, a specific amount of faith, and we are to exercise that faith given, by thinking.
     

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