IFB sometimes gets it wrong!

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Christlifter, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been saved out of the Charismatic Movement and demon-possession, and I am an IFB. I am raisng my kids in an IFB Church that is Non-Hyles, and non-abusive, even though KJVP (TR-MT) and "Old-School". That doesn't mean we don't "mess up" either.

    Here is an essay I have written on the errors in fundamentalist churches on salvation. This problem varies from church to church. I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe that God's Spirit must work for salvation to occur.


    http://www.momof9splace.com/childsalvation.html

    Look at the website first, and then read the commentary - God Bless!

    Friends and Family,

    Believe it or not, what is said about children, is also the process for adults.

    HOW God brings people to conviction (convinced by THE EVIDENCE) of sin and "sinnerdom" or being a sinner, and puts the Gospel in their life, to cause repentance (change of mind) and faith (trust/belief) is as varied as there are created individuals.

    BUT, there are GENERAL PRINCIPLES to be kept in mind on how a genuine salvation actually occurs.

    In the general principle mindset I make the following statements:

    No one is ever truly born again without trusting Christ as their Saviour that trust being based upon the FACT that He shed His Blood and died for their sin.

    However, no one ever truly trusts Christ in this manner, until they are shown BY GOD (however He brings it about) that they are in fact, LOST, SINNERS, and ON THE WAY TO HELL due to their condition.

    This (Conviction and Repentance) is called an "awakening" by the "old-schoolers", and whether it is for 30 seconds, or 30 years, it always precedes salvation.

    We adults also, must be "awakened" convicted/convinced (cause to see - convinced by the evidence) our sins and sinfulness by the Holy Ghost. This will cause us to acknowledge that God is JUST to send us to Hell, for our rebellion.

    Only strong preaching against sin, OR using the 10 Commandments to show sinners their sins, OR/AND the Holy Ghost of God can cause conviction.

    The Holy Ghost is the Author of Biblical Conviction, and He uses the Conscience OR the Law, or His Own Power to convict.

    Only these can "convince one as to the evidence against their hopes of Heaven" Any singular one or ALL of these can do it.


    Holy Ghost Conviction (sin, righteousness and judgment in a real salvation experience) causes us to REPENT (change our mind), about our sins as ok, and our sinfulness as excusable. This will generate a TRUE desire to be free from sin (aka lifestyle) and receive Christ.

    I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE SAVED OR PROVE OUR SALVATION BY WORKS. What this is all (Conviction of the Holy Ghost and Repentance) is referring to is the HEART-ATTITUDE, of the individual towards God, Sin, and Self.


    Implied in this however is that we would also stop TRUSTING anything else (including a past profession of "faith" or false supernatural "experience" from Satan AND THOSE ABOUND IN THE LAST DAYS) and turn from our own way.

    Salvation is not received by "asking Jesus into your heart", or merely "praying a sinners prayer" when one is not convicted of being a sinner. When you are convicted, you desire to repent.

    There is nothing in Scripture about "asking Jesus in your heart", or any of those other pithy sayings that come to mind, when dealing with cruddy and wicked "mass evangelism" tactics. That is not to say the Holy Spirit does not indwell the heart of the believer (REGENERATION), and bring assurance, but He is not allowed to come in this way. The way of the cross leads home!

    Once one is convicted and desires to repent, then they must TRUST the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, based on The Gospel that He has DONE for all sinners.

    The Gospel: Christ shed His Blood for all sinners, to wash their sins away/blot them out, Died for all sinners-taking their Hell and punishment upon Himself, was buried, and Rose again (as the Perfect God-Man who never sinned) for all sinners, to give out eternal life, to those who repent from their sin (as convicted by the Holy Ghost) and trust Christ as their Saviour. They then receive eternal life, justification, righteousness, and assurance, by this simple act of faith. (YOU NEED TO LOOK UP THESE BIG WORDS!)

    That, in turn leads us to truly trust Christ as Our LORD and SAVIOUR. This does not mean the Christian in now sinless, but He/She does "sin-less" than before CONVICTION AND REPENTANCE, and desires (though is not perfect in completing) to do God's Will, not the self's. Desires (heart-attitudes) change!

    This ACTUAL AND ORIGINAL LEGITIMATE SALVATION EXPERIENCE is evidenced to the heart of an individual by I John...Read the Book of 1st John to see the portrait of a believer.

    Some of the subjective experiences, mixed in with Biblical truth could be experienced as follows:

    The indwelling Holy Ghost in the heart, the "lifted load" of sins, heart-belief that Jesus Christ is God, the awareness of the nearness of God, the desire to know God from His Word, the desire to pray, the Scripture opened and understandable, the desire to hear preaching, the desire to be around other saved people, the desire to see others saved, the hunger and thirst for righteousness, sin becomes painful and "icky" and once done, causes unalleviable grief until dealt with biblically, God using the person to reach others as he/she was reached, and he/she slowly changed (or changing) personality traits, where as things that were once acceptable, are no longer are.

    Also, the heart of the person will no longer be "empty", and there won't be a "void" in the heart/life like "something’s missing", because the Holy Spirit will have taken up residence in that persons body, soul, and spirit. Sin will no longer satisfy, ONLY JESUS CHRIST!
    There is such a "thing" as a carnal Christian. Conviction and Repentance, Faith and Salvation, continue in the life from point of origin (salvation), until death. Also the Christian will be absolutely miserable in acts of sin, and will have "stuff happen" in their life, even maybe death, to cause them to "get right". A real Christian, when walking in the flesh, for days or weeks or any indeterminate period of time will be the most miserable person on Earth.

    Regardless of how deep (not as in a period of time, but actions/attitudes) into sin a real believer may go, they have always been convicted and repented in the beginning, and will always come back to the Lord Jesus Christ in humility and contrition, desiring to make it right, and have His pardon. They don't "leave and never come back". In the South they say "Well, if he is really saved, he'll be back." In the South too, it's said a lot, "You gotta get lost before you can get saved!"

    HOWEVER, 75%-90% of people who think they fall into this category, or define themselves as that (and are for months and years), have never gone through these general salvation principles and Holy Ghost led experiences in their own life, and have merely a false "faith" or a simple head-knowledge about salvation. THEY NEVER FORWARD-SLID TO BACKSLIDE! They have never been convicted, repented, and trusted Christ. John 3:17-21 states that. Read it!

    Only God knows (and that individual) if a "carnal" Christian is really saved or not.

    Search the scripture about the purpose-work of the Law and Conscience in Paul's Epistles (Romans 2:14 - 8:30; The Book of Galatians) and read the Law (10 Commandments) in Exodus 20

    Read up about the Holy Spirit and his work in John (14-17) regarding the lost and sinners, and read up on repentance and faith in Luke and Acts (Various verses).

    Also, when reading about people being saved by faith in Christ, in the Scripture (The Gospels and Acts), notice their attitude (not work - I am not a hyper-Calvinist, faith and repentance are heart attitudes, not works) of Repentance when they come to Christ.

    Remember, once a person is genuinely saved, they are no longer slaves to sin, or the Law. That's why we don't use the 10 commandments on true Christians, or anything else out of the Decalogue.

    Try out what has been said here in dealing with yourself, your adult friends and family, and your children. Salvation is too serious to play games with, or get wrong. Eternity depends on it. Salvation is not complicated, but it does require some understanding of these things, IN THE HEART!

    Too many people have grown up in Bible-Preaching churches, or been "evangelized" and are worse for it, because of the various reasons listed here and in the article submitted.

    God Bless you all, and Jesus Saves sinners (like me/us!)

    The Tomlin Family
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi!

    good post! Don't see any problem with it except perhaps the notion that 75-90% of those who had "backslid" were actually never saved in the first place - don't know how anyone could make that claim with any real knowledge.

    btw, Ive heard it said many times that "you have to get them lost before you can see them saved" and Ive never been from the South. So that's not that rare of an idea. :)

    Otherwise, yay! Not sure why you titled your OP as you did, but.....ok.
     
  3. pastor_brad

    pastor_brad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have some great thoughts on this important issue. I am an IFB Pastor, and I teach my people that we do not need to be Calvinist or Arminnian, but we should be Biblicists. The issue of a man's salvation is too important for us to be fuzzy and unclear about. I think your points are in line with the clear teachings of Scripture.

    Thanks for the post, and the article. :thumbs:
     
  4. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have backslid in the past, and I KNOW I was saved and still am. I am now serving the Lord again, although I do get discouraged with all the bickering and fighting among God's people. I can't understand why those who claim the name of Jesus Christ can't unite as one in Christ instead of arguing over petty matters. Yes, I'm going through a bad time right now.

    By the way, what is IFB?
     
  5. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ifb

    IFB = Independent Fundamental Baptist

    :jesus::thumbs::laugh:
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    Didn't Peter deny Jesus three times.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    John 1:12--But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

    Rev. 3:20--Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
     
  8. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Misconstruction

    Please re-read the post. I never said Christians were sinless. But many (not all) who profess to be backsilders are not. once again, it's the heart-attitude.
     
  9. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elder

    Bro. John.

    I have read your website. If you read John R. Rice's Commentary on John, I forgot what page it is on - somewhere in the middle towards the back in the 200's-, he has a good paragraph on this. He states that when people said to him that they "asked Jesus into their hearts", he corrected them and told them they had trusted Christ, and the Holy Spirit had taken up residence in their heart.

    You know Rev 3:20 is speaking in context to the Laodecian church, not the individual. It's talking to the professing church today, en mass.

    John 1:12 is not contextually able to be used for the "heart" arguement. Yes we become the sons of God, when we believe on His name. However we do NOT beleive on his name, until we understand our need. My post has already explained that.

    God Bless!

    :jesus::laugh::sleeping_2:
     
  10. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    And yet, we have the word of Christ Himself on the matter-

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    And again, the desire and declaration of the Apostle Paul-

    Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
    17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Yes, Christ is in my heart!
     
  11. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen!:thumbs:
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192

    Thanks for checking out our website. I hope it was a blessing!

    I found the paragraph you were talking about in the John R. Rice commentary on John, The Son of God. (I highly commend your reading choice! :thumbs: ) It was in the notes on 14:15-26, where the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as our Comforter. Dr. Rice wrote, "You say, 'I let Jesus come into my heart.' What you really did was to trust Christ to save you, then the Holy Spirit moved into your body and thus He manifests the Father and the Son" (pp. 286-287).

    At first glance it would appear that you are right, that John R. Rice did not believe you should tell folk to ask Jesus into their hearts. However, in his comments on 1:12 in the same book he wrote, "Will you note that receiving and believing are the same? If any onme wants to know what it means to believe on Jesus, it simply means to receive Him. That is the same kind of promise as Rev. 3:20, 'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.' That is the same kind of promise of Revelation 22:17, 'And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.'"

    Again, in his commentary on Revelation, Dr. Rice interpreted 3:20 as being to saved people, but then wrote, "Now Christ stands at the heart’s door of every Christian (v. 20) and wants to restore fellowship that has been broken by their worldliness and lukewarmness. But the truth applies to all men everywhere. Christ is at the door. A lost man who wants salvation has only to open the door. That means that he wants forgiveness, he believes Christ will come in, and trusts Christ to do it” (Behold He Comes, p. 103). So he allows for evangelism using this verse.

    I disagree. I believe that 3:20 is to individuals in the Laodecian church because of the language it uses in the singular: "If any man...with him...he with me."

    Since John 1:12 speaks of receiving Him I believe it can be used in this way. Where are we to receive Him if not into our hearts?

    Having said that, you are right on in your original post when you speak of the need for repentance and the need to clearly explain the Gospel. This is where I agree with you: some of our beloved IFB fellow-travelers are careless with how they present the Gospel. I believe strongly in repentance and the substitutionary atonement of Christ, just as Dr. John R. Rice did.

    God Bless! :wavey: :jesus:
     
  13. baptistteacher

    baptistteacher
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is, always has been, only one way to be saved, counted righteous before God, and that is to believe.

    Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom. 4:3
    (See Gen 15:, Gal. 3:6)

    The only time the question is directly posed and succinctly answered in the Bible is Acts 16: 30, 31:
    What must I do to be saved? …Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved …
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    And your point in relation to the discussion is?
     
  15. Christlifter

    Christlifter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro John

    Thank you Brother John, for helping to make the distinction clearer to me.

    :godisgood::jesus::wavey:
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    Glad I could help. God bless you for your humble attitude--often not seen in Internet forums.

    John R. Himes

    :godisgood::jesus::wavey:
     
  17. TBLADY

    TBLADY
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would correct this statement to say the bible says to make Jesus LORD (the word Lord always comes bere the word Saviour) of your life, that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. If he isn't your Lord how can he begin to be your Saviour? I gring when I hear people or preachers leave out his lordship.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    Welcome to the Baptist Board. :wavey:

    What you are advocating is called "Lordship salvation," and I cringe when I read it. Jesus Christ is Lord of all. He is also Savior. You cannot "make Him" either "Lord of your life" or Savior, He already is. And contrary to the efforts of men like John MacArthur and Arend Ten Pas, Lordship salvation is not the teaching of the Bible nor is it the historical teaching of evangelicalism (including Fundamentalism). :type:
     
  19. Bro. James

    Bro. James
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,636
    Likes Received:
    14
    We all get it wrong--a lot

    Subject seems to be: genuine salvation.

    "Salvation is of the Lord", excludes the depraved works of man--including his free will, which is enslaved to his carnal nature. Without the Grace of God imparting the faith to believe, the best man can do is wallow in the miry clay in his own "self-right-ness"--separated from God.

    "I" have decided to follow Jesus...should read: Thank-you, Lord, for having saved my soul; thank-you, Lord, for having made me whole...here am i, send me.

    Lordship is of the Lord as well. Without the quickening of the spirit which is of the Lord, we would have no real desire to follow Him as Master. Surely, we can take no credit in any of this--we still sin--daily--in thought and deed.

    How do we know? John knew: "These things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life..."

    "Noone comes to the Father unless The Spirit draws him..."

    Choose wisely,

    Bro. James
     
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jesus IS Lord, always has been, always is, always will be. Whether we admit it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we preach it or not, whether we believe it or not, He is Lord, and there is no other.

    One day every knee will bow and proclaim that truth.

    No one makes Him his Lord. The child of God who knowingly, willfully, and consciously refuses to put himself under the Lordship of Christ will for certain, in this life, know that his Lord will bring him to subjection.

    The child of God who humbles himself before His Lordship will surely know in this life that his Lord is gracious, and a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

    The unbeliever who worships other gods, or bows down to other gods, or submits himself to other lords will one day in eternity future look up and say Oh, Jesus, Thou art Lord.
     

Share This Page

Loading...